I FIXED LITERALLY EVERYTHING!

[akroma222]

Lyle_drake,
Your combat tweaking suggestions & changes above actually got me thinking on a modded combat system similar to the way Might Magic X handles it
Ill post up an idea discussion soon
Congrats on getting your dungeon out there!
Akroma

[lyle_drake]

Your combat tweaking suggestions & changes above actually got me thinking on a modded combat system similar to the way Might Magic X handles it
Ill post up an idea discussion soon

Ooh, i look forward to it.
The greatest thing about being an artist is knowing that your work had an impact on someone. And this is sort of art. In a way.

[Dr.Disaster]

Why did nobody do this earlier i wonder?

I'd personally find it annoying ..

It is. Feels like reverting back to pre-DM ages when all we had was turn-based.

.. though I'd welcome an AI based change in the mechanics to make it harder to step-n-stab the opponents.

LoG2 covered that quite good with improved monster AI and timing.

[Isaac]

Why did nobody do this earlier i wonder?

I'd personally find it annoying ..

It is. Feels like reverting back to pre-DM ages when all we had was turn-based.

... Except that back then, turn based mechanics came second, and are pre-dated by realtime mechanics.

Games like Dungeonmaster and Eye of the Beholder are all effectively continuous-turn style games; like playing Chess with a timer, instead of having unlimited time to think. Not taking any action is a valid action choice during one's turn in games like BT / DM / EoB; where as (Alternatively) in a game like 'Pool of Radiance', not making a choice effectively halts the game until one takes an action.

Grimrock plays like Continuous-turn. What I like is that one's action can be to run, or to attack, but it's an inherent flaw that one can attack & run, or run & attack; (one that Bard's Tale did not suffer from... as it made you choose to do one or the other).

This thread's combat change does technically fix it, but it's annoying, and damages the pacing IMO. There is no good solution AFAIK, but my preferred fix for the problem is either a flat accuracy penalty for any moving attack, or a stat-check—or both; so that attacks on the run are much less likely to succeed, rather than have forced immobilization. In a room like we have in the ORRR2 mod, with area effecting fire spells, and many flying projectile weapons & spells, the party needs to be able to dodge at all times.

It would be nice to make it a double edge too, and allow the monsters the same attack options... which Petri did—somewhat, in that Zarchton dodge, and several enemies take attacks of opportunity towards the party if they are directly adjacent when they enter the cell.

[akroma222]

Well, the discussion is happening here....
Ok - these were some ideas I had following my initial read of this thread about......
1 Penalties, 2 Party States

PENALTIES while: Attacking, Moving, Special Attacks, Climbing,
(Swimming probably too)
Attacking

SpoilerShow

1 - Can't Move or Turn IF champion:isAttacking
2 - Small Evasion penalty

Moving

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1 - Attack Accuracy halved (unless ?trait?)
2 - Cancels Spell Casting (stops volley of projectiles eg) (unless ?trait?)
3 - Cancels / Stops Charging of Special Attacks (unless ?trait?)
4 - Some/all of the above have a chance% to Backfire / Fumble / Hit another Champ instead (unless ?trait?)
5 - Small Evasion bonus

Turning

SpoilerShow

1 - Cancels Spell Casting (stops volley of projectiles eg) (unless ?trait?)

Being Attacked by adjacent Monster (while Moving/Turning/Climbing)

SpoilerShow

1 - Significant Bonus to Evasion
2 - Significant Penalty to Protection
3 - Significant Bonus to monster Attack Damage (2x damage) (unless ?trait?)

Being Damaged + Back stabbed (while Moving/Turning/Climbing away from adjacent Monster)

SpoilerShow

1 - Cancels Move or Turn
2 - Cancels Spell Casting (stops volley of projectiles eg) (unless ?trait?)
3 - Cancels / Stops Charging of Special Attacks (unless ?trait?)
4 - Champ suffers Chest Injury

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Party Combat States - FREE, ENGAGED, HALTED, CAUGHT, SURROUNDED, TRAPPED, FLEEING
FREE / ROAMING

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The Party has NO Monsters in any adjacent squares (diagonal squares OK)
The Party can Turn/Move/Attack etc as it would normally
The Party receives No Penalties

ENGAGED

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The Party has Monster/s in 1 adjacent square + is NOT blocked on the other 3 squares
The Party can Turn/Move/Attack etc as it would normally
The Party receives some/all of the above mentioned Penalties -

HALTED

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The Party has Monsters in 2 adjacent squares + is NOT blocked on the other 2 squares
OR The Party has Monster/s in 1 adjacent square + is blocked on 1 other square
The Party can Turn freely
The Party can NOT Move while:
1 - any of those monsters are Attacking the Party
2 - any Champion is making an Attack / Special Action / Casting Spell
The Party receives some/all of the above mentioned Penalties -

CAUGHT

SpoilerShow

The Party has Monsters in 3 adjacent squares + is NOT blocked on the other 1 square
OR The Party has Monster/s in 2 adjacent squares + is blocked on 1 other square
OR The Party has Monster/s in 1 adjacent square + is blocked on 2 other squares
The Party can NOT Move OR Turn while
1 - any of those monsters are Attacking the Party
2 - any Champion is making an Attack / Special Action / Casting Spell
The Party receives some/all of the above mentioned Penalties -

SURROUNDED

SpoilerShow

The Party has Monsters (on at least 1 square) or is Blocked on ALL adjacent squares
The Party can NOT Move OR Turn while
1 - any of those monsters are Attacking the Party
2 - any Champion is making an Attack / Special Action / Casting Spell
The Party receives some/all of the above mentioned Penalties -
1 - The Party can NOT choose to FLEE

TRAPPED

SpoilerShow

The Party can NOT leave an Area or Room without defeating certain Monsters
1 - The Party can NOT choose to FLEE

FLEEING

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If the Party is NOT TRAPPED or SURROUNDED
AND all champions are NOT Paralyzed / Petrified / Frozen etc
AND all champions are Ready to Attack (ie not in cooldown) then
>>> Click on the FLEE (custom GUI) button
>>> Calculate a random but clear path
>>> and Game Controls disable
>>> as you are Auto - Moved very fast away from Monsters

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I believe that implementing such a system will strike players as quite foreign and awkward ....
However - it will make Area Denial spells (trap Runes), abilities (knockback) and strategies (not lazy face tanking) more important.
It would also make Conditions such as Haste / Invisibility much more useful ...
and harmful Conditions (Injuries) that slow party move speed and actions much more detrimental

Thoughts?? Discussion?
(Is Akroma complicating things AGAIN...!?? )
PS - I have drafted ideas for Combat Statistics (Morale & Stamina) but shall detail these later
PPS - I honestly dont plan on implementing this in my Mod - just ideas...

[lyle_drake]

Woah , that's... a lot to go over.
The first thing i notice, though, is that it doesn't REALLY fix the biggest issue: 1v1s still look pretty tedious. I can see three central mechanics that directly impact them:

-Can't Move or Turn IF champion:isAttacking.
champion:isAttacking... isn't a thing. We could make it a thing, but that's pretty much what i just did. so yeah, it'd help. Doesn't stop you from attacking while in motion, though. unless you hook it up to cancel the movement when you attack, which... Might actually be a better version of what i made.

-Reduced Accuracy and cancelled power attacks/spells while moving(count as one because they all serve the same ultimate purpose: reducing damage while moving).
Reducing DPS doesn't really change anything, it just makes the fight longer without reducing the threat to the player. I might find myself not dodging incredibly weak enemies, just to make the fights faster, but i do that anyway.

-Chance to hit another champion while moving
I absolutely LOVE this one ! I can just imagine a super disorganised party, fumbling over each other trying to sidestep an ogre, swinging their weapons wildly and ultimately doing more damage to each other than the ogre is doing. It is, though, ultimately just a slightly cruel way of punishing attacking while moving, and the player will quickly learn never to move and attack at the same time, unless they really need to. But i get that penalizing attacking while moving could be preferrable to completely forbidding it altogether like i've done.

As for the Combat states, i'm not sure i like the idea of giving the party extra penalties when fighting more enemies at once. Like, if the player's surrounded on three sides, they're already in a pretty bad place, it's a bit cruel to give them even more problems.
Also, what's the point of the FLEE button? None of these completely stop the player from moving, except the one that also disables fleeing.

[AndakRainor]

I don't understand where you are going with those ideas!

What is the "right" combat strategy you wish players to learn? I see you don't like "square dancing" (me neither), but you also don't like tanking??? (I love tanking).

[lyle_drake]

I don't understand where you are going with those ideas!

What is the "right" combat strategy you wish players to learn? I see you don't like "square dancing" (me neither), but you also don't like tanking??? (I love tanking).

Oh i'm totally up for making the player tank. I realise i could have made it sound like i didn't like the idea, but the whole point of my recent dungeon was to force the player to tank.
Yeah, i could have formulated myself better there. Tanking IS the preferrable strat. Put those defensive skills to some use.