Options for Frustration Reduction and Age/Ability Fairness

[Mychaelh]

I can understand people who have disabilities hard/impossible to remove (Arachnophobia etc.) to demand option to reduce some particular things.
But for the rest, I too have no sympathy.

If you want to spent your time virtually imagining yourself has an hero...at least try to be one.

LoG is a revival of a genre that faded because the majority of 'gamers' just want's to get sucked their dicks.
Give them FLAK!

KMFDM - Kein Mittleid Für Die Mehrheit (= No Pity For The Majority / Keep Madonna From Doing Masturbation)

-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvZqWq0ZNjk

[Halk]

This has become downright insulting. Are you deliberately trying to offend people Cryocore?

I get that you're better than me. I get that you're able to play the game to a much better, deeper standard. I get that you're more intelligent than me too. You're a hardcore old school gamer and I'm a 3 year old girl in a screaming tantrum.

I also get that in your mind the game is designed to be difficult because of the UI. In your mind there's no difference between a puzzle in the game and a bad keyboard. In your mind if the developers had left a bug in by accident then it would be part of the game and part of the intended challenge.

But what you don't get, pal, is that you're completely and utterly wrong. There are several reports that it's down to how well/poorly equipped a PC that someone is using. If your PC is struggling with the game then it makes things more difficult. I appreciate that you can justify nearly anything you like, however can you justify that too? Is that a gameplay mechanic?

[Byeohazard]

You people who are saying things like.... get over it, if you don't like it go play something else, or, why should the game be changed to suit all you old people, etc.... need to just back off!

The conversation here was centered around asking that there be options, read that...OPTIONS.... to lower the difficulty for people that cannot do some of the timed quests.
They were not insisting that the game be totally changed for everyone.

Some of the posts have stated that they want the game to be even harder. You don't see them getting abused because they want to change the game do you?

EXACTLY!! Options! Seems that point was forgotten for some reason. I was going to post the same.

[cryocore]

This has become downright insulting. Are you deliberately trying to offend people Cryocore?

I get that you're better than me. I get that you're able to play the game to a much better, deeper standard. I get that you're more intelligent than me too. You're a hardcore old school gamer and I'm a 3 year old girl in a screaming tantrum.

I also get that in your mind the game is designed to be difficult because of the UI. In your mind there's no difference between a puzzle in the game and a bad keyboard. In your mind if the developers had left a bug in by accident then it would be part of the game and part of the intended challenge.

But what you don't get, pal, is that you're completely and utterly wrong. There are several reports that it's down to how well/poorly equipped a PC that someone is using. If your PC is struggling with the game then it makes things more difficult. I appreciate that you can justify nearly anything you like, however can you justify that too? Is that a gameplay mechanic?

You've missed the point entirely and keep your over reative misguided and emotionally dishonest self flagellation to yourself. I am not attacking anyone, nor am I even suggesting I am better than anyone.

I am not touting my skills at all. I am also not making any assertion about the UI, or any hardware issues.

ALL of my points are about design and game play ONLY.

I agree some patching couldnt hurt in order to improve performance and fix the responsiveness some people are experiencing. I have not made a comment (til this point) about the stability of the engine or the games responsiveness. If you're going to get precious about something I've said please ensure I actually said it in the first place.
To reiterate so there is no confusion. I am not talking about the games performance on your or anyone elses rig. That is a completely different issue.

My issue is only about people complaining the game is too hard for them and wanting it to me made easier.

The magic system is designed to be that way. If you dont like it, too bad.
The combat is designed to be that way. If you dont like it, too bad.
The Timed puzzles are designed to be that way. Dont like it, too bad.

If your PC is struggling thats another issue entirely. One that will either need and upgrade from you, or some tweaking from Almost Human.
Dont confuse my ire at the complainers for anything more than it is. My issue is solely about people who due to their own limitations wanting the game to be altered to suit them even though those changes are contrary to the design of the game and the deliberate challenge it provides.

Just to be clear. It's your (their) lack of ability or skill that is the issue.
Its your (their) problem.
You (they) should deal with it. Its not up to developers to pander to people who are unable to meet the challenge of a game simply because those gamers find it too hard.

If you find it hard. Practice and improve. If you are still unable to meet the challenge, drop the difficulty. If you are still struggling then its not the game for you. Go play something in your wheelhouse and leave games like this to the niche it was designed for.

[Fargol]

Actually I think you've forgotten what the discussion was about.

It's about options, not changes that affect everyone.

Let's say the game only had a 'hard' difficulty level, and is as hard as the game is now in the highest setting.

Would you object if people asked for easier difficulty levels? Because that would be making the game easier, by choice.

That's all people are talking about. Providing OPTIONS that enable some people to enjoy the game more.

Ultimately the devs will decide what to add and what not to. And while I believe these guys truly care about the game, and it's obviously a labor of love, it never hurts to make the game as appealing as possible.

[cryocore]

Actually I think you've forgotten what the discussion was about.

It's about options, not changes that affect everyone.

Let's say the game only had a 'hard' difficulty level, and is as hard as the game is now in the highest setting.

Would you object if people asked for easier difficulty levels? Because that would be making the game easier, by choice.

That's all people are talking about. Providing OPTIONS that enable some people to enjoy the game more.

Ultimately the devs will decide what to add and what not to. And while I believe these guys truly care about the game, and it's obviously a labor of love, it never hurts to make the game as appealing as possible.

it about what people are asking for.
I have no issue with difficulty options. Its when people are asking for things contrary to the fundamental design of the game I take issue with.
The timed puzzles are a deliberate and designed challenge. Someones inability to solve them or deal with them is the players issue. This game is designed to be challenging. Changing that defeats part of the purpose of the game.
As for the magic system its exactly the same. Its purposely designed to function in a specific fashion. It requires not only skill, but also the ability to multi task. Its a specific feature and again if a player struggles with it, its their shortcoming and they are basically failing to play the game as designed.

Difficulty options should only be about refining aspects of the game not removing core game play or specific design elements to pander to them. Should the creeps be removed too for those who cant cope with the combat.

There should always be an entry level to any game. If you cant meet that then go play something else.
Look at Dark Souls. It's punishing by design. Remove that and you destroy what makes that game what it is. Same here with the puzzles and magic system. They are there to provide a specific challenge. Player failure should be expected and if some stop trying to overcome it and want an easy out then they should not be playing the game in the first place as it was obviously not a game designed for their abilities/sensibilities or game play preferences.

[Halk]

Cryocore, you're full of rubbish. Neither you nor I know what the fundamental design of the game is supposed to be. All we can do is play the game as implemented and make a guess.

[cryocore]

Cryocore, you're full of rubbish. Neither you nor I know what the fundamental design of the game is supposed to be. All we can do is play the game as implemented and make a guess.

and yet I'm not the one wanting things changed to suit my subjective wants and/or skill level.

[seebs]

to cryocore ....

Nice attitude.

So why are you against adding OPTIONS to render CERTAIN PARTS of the game (i.e. timed puzzles) more forgiving?

It DOES NOT affect YOUR game. As a matter of fact, it isn't your game, and anyone who paid for it has EVERY RIGHT to make requests of the development team, provided they do so in a polite and civil manner, which people have done in this thread.

Because its the typical PC pandering that slowly erodes complexity and challenge.

This is non-responsive. It's an option. Don't want it? Don't use it.

The timed puzzles were designed to offer a specific challenge, the combat is designed to offer a specific challenge. People inability to cope/deal with them is the players fault/issue asking a developer to completely rewrite a specific part of the game only because certain individuals are incapable of meeting the set challenge is frankly idiotic.

Spoken like someone who is not one of those individuals.

It's not idiotic at all. A game which can be tuned to challenge different players is providing a richer experience for more people. More happy customers => more money.

Should we lower college requirements so that its easier for people to get in just because they lack the intelligence or drive to meet the current requirement?

Boy, that's totally comparable, because people use whether or not you completed a given game to decide whether you are qualified to do a particular job.

Note, BTW, that many colleges now provide substantial support services for people with localized disabilities. There are people who are pretty smart, and can do the work, but need a hand with some aspect of it.

Should we remove certain words or phrases from movies/TV shows because some people dont understand them?
Should we make it easier to pass exams just because some people struggle?
Should we lower the requirements for passing your drivers licence because some people struggle and will never pass?

The first of these... you do realize, don't you, that most movies and TV shows are carefully written down to a very large degree already?

The second: Both of these result in harm to other people. We get diluted qualifications, or dangerous people on the roads. Those are actual problems which affect other people!

Should we decrease difficulty because some people cant cope with it?

This, by contrast, simply has no effect at all on the people who don't decide to use that option. Sure, it "costs development time" -- and also brings in funding. Broader appeal is often a very good way to fund development.

The issue I have is that people are asking for something to be removed/made easier because they are unable/unwilling to meet the challenge set. Not due to poor implementation, not due to it being broken, but because its too difficult. It was designed to be difficult its not the games failure its a failure of the player.

Gosh, you sure are a lot better than all those people who aren't able to play this game as well as you can. Can I have your babies? It's part of my eugenics program to cull the week and infirm, defined as "people who have trouble with twitch reflex games".

Sorry but its a game and not every game is made for everyone. If you cant deal with the challenge then this game was not meant for you regardless of any desire you might have to play it.

If some people miss out then why should I or anyone care?

Well, the developer might care because those people would turn into non-customers. And thus not pay them money.

I am not arrogant or self-centred enough to even suggest that the designed complexity be reduced just to cater to my inability to play the game.

But you are arrogant and self-centered enough to demand that another game be kept at a level you like. Demanding no-change is no less demanding than demanding change.

If the game is too hard... too bad. Its your issue, deal with it yourself.

Yeah, see. This is a fascinating attitude that would doubtless be suitable if you were writing literature for art's sake with the intent that it be read by three or four critics and ignored by everyone else. It's a bad way to approach game design.

Thus far, I'm finding Grimrock pretty fun, although the puzzles are a little simple. But I am totally fine with the idea that people might prefer to have different settings. I mean, there's a reason games have difficulty settings; I don't see any reason for which it's perfectly acceptable to have a combat-damage-numbers setting, but not a puzzle-timing setting.

[seebs]

Cryocore, you're full of rubbish. Neither you nor I know what the fundamental design of the game is supposed to be. All we can do is play the game as implemented and make a guess.

and yet I'm not the one wanting things changed to suit my subjective wants and/or skill level.

Neither is the OP, if you read carefully.

You are, however, the one insisting that because the game currently suits your desires or skill, it shouldn't be changed.

I dunno. I used to take this point of view more seriously until I got to know a one-armed gamer. Now I am a lot more aware that there are real reasons for people to want changes. Heck, I probably couldn't play this game if it didn't have the option to turn off music and ambient sound. (lolwut, you say? I'm autistic. I cannot handle the amount of sensory input most games provide with music and ambient sound on, so I can't hear sound effects consistently when they're on. You need to hear sound effects to play this game...)