An idea for a Cleric class in Grimrock 2

[Malenfant]

Hello, everyone! First post here.

With the advent of Grimrock 2, I thought I might post an idea for a possible Cleric class that I had. Tell me what you think about it!

Cleric skill trees:

- Divine Favour
- Shielding
- Torchbearer
- Spears
- Unarmed Combat
- Maces

Divine Favour:

I started with the idea that a Cleric's spells shouldn't work with runes like a Mage, since the gods are unlikely to be available on demand, but rather, that the gods would reward the Cleric when they judge him worthy of their favour. This led me to the idea of basing the Cleric's spell-casting around automatic effects that happen when he attacks or is attacked. Another thought behind this idea is the fact that a lot of us find playing with more than one Mage cumbersome due to the rune system, and this would avoid making the two classes mutually exclusive.

Making the Cleric's healing an auto-effect also addresses the problem of “requiring” a healer. They’re meant to be a nice bonus to having the class, such as the auto-hit of an archer Rogue, but not the be all and end all of a Grimrock party. The Cleric’s healing is a bit unreliable so that it doesn’t become the whole focus of the class, since it’s not the only thing it brings to the party and parties are viable without them. It also ties healing to damage-dealing and ensures the Cleric can remain an active contributor to defeating monsters.

Finally, I would like Divine Favour to play a role in the Cleric’s survival akin to the way that Dodge and Armours are for Rogues and Fighters. While Dodge is evasion-based and Armours protection-based, Divine Favour gives the Cleric extra health and faster regeneration on top of the healing he does for the whole team. The final skill in the tree allows the Cleric to attack faster so the heals trigger more often.

The tree would look a bit like this:

Lvl 3: Vitality +2
Lvl 6: Inspiration (Chance to heal the party when attacking an enemy)
Lvl 10: Health +5
Lvl 13: Smite (The gods smite your enemies with lightning: chance to trigger Shock spell on enemy when teammate receives damage)
Lvl 17: Vitality +2
…
Lvl 24: Greater Inspiration (Chance to heal and amount healed increased)
…
Lvl 32: Sustenance (Health regenerates 20% faster)
…
Lvl 50: Godspeed (All actions recharge 20% faster)


Shielding:

The basic idea here is that, if a Cleric were to learn any non-divine magic, it would the elemental shield spells that the Mage has. Shield spells, unlike attack spells, are used before battle and rarely need to be renewed during a fight. This, again, allows the player to concentrate only on one set of runes in a fight.

In a similar way to You-Know-Who needs a wand or orb to cast, a Cleric’s bare hands wouldn’t glow blue, but rather he’d require to have a shield equipped which you can right-click to make the runes appear.

The skill tree itself would contain both Light Armour Proficiency and Shield Master from the Armours tree, coming at later levels than for Fighters, and all four of the Mage Shield skills coming at earlier levels than for Mages, plus some boosts to protection. Poison Shield comes particularly early because of a Cleric’s support should include status prevention fairly early on, in my opinion. Going deeply into this tree is an option for Clerics who don’t want to rely on random heals and added regeneration for protection.

Something like this:

Lvl 3: Protection +2
Lvl 8: Spell: Poison Shield
Lvl 12: Light Armour Proficiency
Lvl 15: Health +5
Lvl 18: Spell: Fire Shield
…
Lvl 26: Spell: Shock Shield
Lvl 30: Shield Master (Double the evasion bonus from shields)

...
Lvl 38: Spell: Ice Shield
…
Lvl 50: Spell: Force Field (Completely absorbs the next 3 attacks to the party)


Torchbearer:

Delving into the idea of insta-casting while also wanting to give Clerics some unique weapons, I came upon the fact that the game allows you to use torches as weapons. So what if we make Clerics able to wield torches like fearless zealots?

The torch skill-tree would increase damage when wielding a torch far and beyond what a regular torch-wielder does, similar to how Unarmed Combat works, with skills that deal extra damage by auto-casting fire spells. It could provide some utility and further support by bringing a skill that makes torches never run out while held, as well as the ability to use purifying flames to recover bad status (poison, sickness).

However, it requires the Cleric to be in the frontline, so there’s a risk.

Possible layout:

Lvl 3: Willpower +1
Lvl 7: Energy +5
Lvl 10: Singe (A direct hit with the torch that burns the enemy: cast Fireburst when attacking)
...
Lvl 16: Cleansing Fire (Chance to remove status effects on teammates when attacking an enemy)
…
Lvl 23: Flame of Hope (Held torches never run out)
...
Lvl 38: Conflagration (Whirl the torch around you, burning the enemy: cast stronger version of Fireburst)
…
Lvl 50: Playing with Fire (20% attack speed bonus with torches)


Spears:

This is the weapon of choice for Clerics if you want to keep them in the backline. There’s a tradeoff: putting your Cleric in the front row with a torch gives him more damage and extra support thanks to the status recovery skill in Torchbearer, but putting your Cleric in the back row with a spear keeps him safe while still being to trigger heals and smites. To even things out, the level 50 skill would let Spear users trigger heals more often by attacking faster.

Spears may not be a classic Cleric weapon, but they certainly fit concepts that go more in the direction of a templar or crusader.

The skill tree would be a standard combat tree with a few special attacks and a bunch of bonuses:

Lvl 4: Strength +1
Lvl 7: Health +5
Lvl 10: Skewer (A well-aimed attack that does extra damage)
...
Lvl 22: Run through (A powerful attack that pierces enemies’ armour)
...
Lvl 33: Piercing barrage (An onslaught of spear attacks that decimates enemies)
…
Lvl 50: Spear Master (Doubles attack speed with spears)


Unarmed Combat and Maces:

I’d like to give Clerics the option of going Unarmed because, well, “monks” are a kind of cleric, and because access to healing through Divine Favour would add an interesting element to the choice of which class to go for when Unarmed: Rogue for the early evasion bonus in Dodge, Fighter for the early access to Light Armour Proficiency or Cleric to add a bit of party healing?

As for Maces, they are the archetypal weapon of the Cleric. I do feel their slow attack doesn’t mesh well with the need to trigger effects from Divine Favour, but a Maces/Shielding Cleric might be a defensive juggernaut in the front row that can immunise the entire party against elemental damage.

I do think these last two skill trees might be up for discussion, though, in case something more interesting can be added instead. Maybe a special skill-tree that uses maces for magical smiting purposes?

Anyway, thanks for your input!

[Komag]

Wow, you've really thought this through! I like it a lot and would love to play that character class. Perhaps the devs will take notice and add something like this to Grimrock 2.

[eLPuSHeR]

Agreed. The "torchbearer" skill tree seems a big exaggerated to me, in my humble opinion. Everything else seems quite okay.

[Neikun]

Awesome stuff. I even like how the cleric's divine focus is a shield.

[Asteroth]

I'm not so sure being so specific is a good idea with suggestions. Will I know you were just trying too inspire the makers. I think just the level of detail is more likely to cause a suggestion to be overlooked.

But that's just my view.

[Komag]

I see it another way, that a lot of detail could make their work easier, so they are more willing to run with it

[Ixnatifual]

I really like the theme of this class. Seems well though out. Details can always be adjusted if needed. I certainly wouldn't mind something like this appearing in LoG2. Priests of some kind seem to exist in the setting, at least, judging from the Sword of Nex description.

[Merethif]

I like the overall concept of Priest you suggested. If I'm somewhat still a bit sceptical it's only because I'm a big fan of original DM game and I'm used to its concept of priest as potion brewer. But as I've already mentioned in another thread (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5023&hilit=class&start=10#p53786), I don't see a place for such a priest in LoG and in LoG2 alike (unless LoG2 will have totally different mechanic, like multi-classing). Your idea is a well though alternative for such classic DM priest. I also like your idea for Favour skill and how you dealt with all that healing-being-overpowered issue.

I love the fact that you kept Priest's skills arsenal equal to Fighters, Rogues and Mages. I mean that all classes have 4 damage dealing skills,1 support skill (that boost offence) and 1 defensive skill. And you followed that rule. I'm not sure if it was intentional but still that's the consistency and balance I like two thumbs up.
Sword / Axe / Mace / Unarmed + Athletic + Armour
Dagger / Unarmed / Missile / Throwing + Assassination + Dodge
Fire / Air / Earth / Ice + Spellcraft + Staff
in case of your Cleric it would be:
Torch-bearer / Spears / Unarmed / Mace + Favour + Shielding

Some comments on skills:

Divine Favour - good, well though skill. Of course it can be tweaked one way or the other but the overall layout seems sensible. I'm seeing this skill as equivalent of other classes "support" skill (Athletic, Assassination, Spellcraft). Maybe it should be general sort of chance-to-get-effect-on-hit skill and provide not only healing and shock but also freeze (like Icefall hammer), fireburst and poison? Also I guess that such on-hit-effects should drain larger amounts of energy, just like special attacks.

Shielding - I think this skill works nicely as well. I'd probably add heavy armour proficiency at some point though. Also I like the idea of shields serving as spell focuses. Actually I made such a shield for You-Know-Who once (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3683&hilit=tank+ra ... eld#p37714). Also I think that Ice Shield spell should really be obtained earlier.

Torch-bearer - I agree with eLPuSHeR that this skill need tweaking, but general idea is very interesting.

Spears - I'm not sure about it really. It doesn't really fit the concept, even if you're thinking about templar, it's rather mace/sword then spear. Maybe create a whip class weapon (as a reach weapon of course). A Simon Belmont in Castlevania uses whips and since he fight vampires, which are undead, he may be considered cleric... ok it may be a bit far-fetched concept but still whips would be cool, wouldn't they? You start of with leather one and end up with spiky ball on chain

Unarmed - As this skill is already used by two classes I'm really sceptical about using it for yet another one. Plus I think eastern monks fit into Fighter class. Swords maybe? To make a paladin/crusader build possible? Idk really.

Maces - I understand you concerns, but it's so classic it's a real must IMO Maybe on-hit-effects could be somewhat relevant to damage? That way mace bearer will have a higher chance to trigger effect at the cost of frequency.

And BTW I've already have been playing with Priest in LoG Priest is just a Mage who can cast Light, Frostbo... I mean Hold Person and have high defence: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2282&hilit=tank&start=20#p26186

[Malenfant]

Thanks a lot for the positive reception!

I love the fact that you kept Priest's skills arsenal equal to Fighters, Rogues and Mages. I mean that all classes have 4 damage dealing skills,1 support skill (that boost offence) and 1 defensive skill. And you followed that rule. I'm not sure if it was intentional but still that's the consistency and balance I like two thumbs up.

That's precisely what I was going for, well spotted!

Some comments on skills:

Divine Favour - good, well though skill. Of course it can be tweaked one way or the other but the overall layout seems sensible. I'm seeing this skill as equivalent of other classes "support" skill (Athletic, Assassination, Spellcraft). Maybe it should be general sort of chance-to-get-effect-on-hit skill and provide not only healing and shock but also freeze (like Icefall hammer), fireburst and poison? Also I guess that such on-hit-effects should drain larger amounts of energy, just like special attacks.

Thanks! I think Fireburst is already provided in Torchbearer. I'm not sure about the other two elements, though. So many auto-skills are going to be consuming a lot of mana and having too many of them could potentially keep the Cleric constantly sucking wind. I'm also not sure it'd be good for the Cleric to randomly spawn Poison clouds: remember that they can also poison your own teammates, so this would easily render the Cleric a liability. I also think that giving the Cleric too many elemental effects would make him step too much on the Mage's toes, so I thought Shock in Divine Favour and and Fireburst in Torchbearer would be more than enough. I could see a compromise being made if we turn "Smite" into a chance to either Shock or Freeze, I guess.

Shielding - I think this skill works nicely as well. I'd probably add heavy armour proficiency at some point though. Also I like the idea of shields serving as spell focuses. Actually I made such a shield for You-Know-Who once (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3683&hilit=tank+ra ... eld#p37714). Also I think that Ice Shield spell should really be obtained earlier.

I really tried to fit in Heavy Armour Proficiency in there, but if you take the four elemental Shield spells, plus Light Armour Proficiency, Shield Master and a unique level 50 skill, that's already loads and loads of special skills, leaving barely any place for regular stats bonuses. No other current skilltree has that many "special", I think.

One compromise would be to forego Light Armours altogether, make Shield Master available earlier and add Heavy Armour Proficiency at level 30ish. As to the order and availability of the spells, I reckon it's a matter of balance. Poison and fire damage are super-common, so getting those early is already a big boon. The price you pay is that the other shield spells require heavier investment in the tree, having to give up other nice things in other trees.

Torch-bearer - I agree with eLPuSHeR that this skill need tweaking, but general idea is very interesting.

Two people have said this already, could you specify why? The basic idea is that the torch would function like any melee weapon, but the special attacks would deal fire elemental damage or heal status.

Spears - I'm not sure about it really. It doesn't really fit the concept, even if you're thinking about templar, it's rather mace/sword then spear. Maybe create a whip class weapon (as a reach weapon of course). A Simon Belmont in Castlevania uses whips and since he fight vampires, which are undead, he may be considered cleric... ok it may be a bit far-fetched concept but still whips would be cool, wouldn't they? You start of with leather one and end up with spiky ball on chain

Woah, whips would be really cool to have in the game, but aren't they more of a Rogue thing usually?

Unarmed - As this skill is already used by two classes I'm really sceptical about using it for yet another one. Plus I think eastern monks fit into Fighter class. Swords maybe? To make a paladin/crusader build possible? Idk really.

I'm not sure, I've played lots of fantasy games where the "monk" is an offshoot of the clerical classes, who can choose whether to spell-casting and go full healer or exorcist or to focus on self-strengthening and go monk or crusader. Many concepts work. And you could certainly see a Cleric saying "I have a vow never to use weapon as part of my faith" and then proceeding to kick ass with his fists.

Maces - I understand you concerns, but it's so classic it's a real must IMO Maybe on-hit-effects could be somewhat relevant to damage? That way mace bearer will have a higher chance to trigger effect at the cost of frequency.

That's a really good idea!

[Neikun]

I think my only problem with the torch bearer skill tree is the torches never die at some point.

As for the spear tree, I think it's really well fitted because it goes against the grain of what everyone's used to, as well as utilizing a weapon that we couldn't specialize with beforehand.