Frontline archer and other party questions

[Malenfant]

Hello!

For my second Grimrock playthrough, I would like to try out all the options I missed out on in the first one.

My first party consisted of an Unarmed Rogue, a Sword Fighter that mixed evasion and protection, a Throwing minotaur and an Ice mage.

Since I'd rather not repeat and You-Know-Who uses an Axe and Fire magic, this leaves me with the following combinations for a second:

1. A Mace Fighter
2. A Missile weapon Rogue
3. An Air Mage (Earth doesn't interest me, my graphic card renders the poison clouds solid black)
4. A Dagger/Assasination Rogue

The Assasination Rogue obviously has little defense and would need to be in the backrow, so I thought I could maybe use the Missile Rogue as an Evasion tank, since the Missile tree gives as much +Dex as the Dagger tree. I'd be missing out on a shield, but with Improved Stealth, the Lurker set would compensate, and I'm under the impression that missing out on the higher skills for Missile is less of a disadvantage than missing out on the special dagger attacks.

I'd essentially start by rushing to level 24 dodge and then aiming for 24 missile towards end-game, gaining all the speed boni. Could this work?

My other question regards the Mace Fighter: is he viable? I hear maces are the worst weapon for Fighters. And which race do you recommend for him?

Thanks a lot in advance!

[Dr.Disaster]

A Mace Fighter's goal is to do massive damage so the best bet is a race that can bring high Strengh and Attack Power. A minotaur with Headhunter trait would be perfect and he makes a good tank too. I had one of those as a party leader once and it worked out nice.

As you have noticed both Missile and Dagger grant the same +Dex so the same +Evasion. With the Dagger Rogue being able to hold a shield beside his weapon he is better suited in the front rank than the Missile Rogue. In addition you don't have to split up skill points for your ranged rogue. The minimum skill points i'd put in Missile or Throwing is 32 for access to volley because it literally doubles a ranged rogues damage output.

[Malenfant]

As you have noticed both Missile and Dagger grant the same +Dex so the same +Evasion. With the Dagger Rogue being able to hold a shield beside his weapon he is better suited in the front rank than the Missile Rogue. In addition you don't have to split up skill points for your ranged rogue. The minimum skill points i'd put in Missile or Throwing is 32 for access to volley because it literally doubles a ranged rogues damage output.

I'm aware of that, but having range and never missing might make up for that disadvantage, and I really think a dagger-wielding evasion tank would be kind of boring compared to a dagger assassin, which gives me a new mechanic to try out, coupled with the Invisibility spell from the Air Mage. I've noted the importance of reaching level 32 with missiles, though, I guess he'll be taking the skill books.

Wouldn't a mace-wielding minotaur miss even more often than minotaurs already do with other weapons?

[Dr.Disaster]

Wouldn't a mace-wielding minotaur miss even more often than minotaurs already do with other weapons?

Only if you neglect his mace skill. Beside 16 points into Armor for heavy armor proficiency every point goes into Mace skill.

Also the accuracy malus of a minotaur is offset pretty easy on creation by placing 4 points into Dex.

[Merethif]

Alternatively you can go with lizardman clubman. My philosophy is opposite to the one presented by Dr.Disaster - I aiming for balance so if weapon has horrible accuracy, I'm going to give it to character that offsets accuracy penalty (with high Dex). Likewise if weapon has huge power I don't feel the need to give it to strongest character - since the damage output will be good enough anyway.

That said, I had no experience with maces (even though I've finished original LoG four times ). I've recently made lizardman clubman for Eye of Dragon mod and so far he's doing well.

As for the rogues I agree with Dr.Disaster that shield is quite important perk for a front-liner. Actually I've got such a character during my first playthrough, but I wasn't really impressed by her performance. On the other hand, it was my first playthrough and I wasn't really aware of all LoG mechanic details by that time, so I screw up several things during her creation&development and probably that's why she didn't shine.

SpoilerShow

Side note. If you're planning a replay of original LoG you may consider Random Party Generator:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2559&start=10#p27673 - it's fun way to play a game with additional challenge.

[Malenfant]

Hmm, so how would I go making a decent Dagger frontline Assassin? 24 points in Dodge, 10 in Daggers and 23 in Assasination? Sounds like this guy would swallow up all the Skill Books!

[Dr.Disaster]

Hmm, so how would I go making a decent Dagger frontline Assassin? 24 points in Dodge, 10 in Daggers and 23 in Assasination? Sounds like this guy would swallow up all the Skill Books!

First and foremost a dagger user needs to hit well. No hits deal no damage so Daggers as the weapon skill should get a bit more then 10 to keep both accuracy and damage up. I would aim to spent between 22 (Piercing Strike) and 33 (Flury of Slashes). Also +1 Dexterity equals +2 Evasion so building up Daggers will aid your defense too.

Next a front row rogue needs is defense, represented by the Dodge skill. It adds a lot of Evasion, making it the primary defense of a rogue. Without spending any points in Dodge a rogue can have scaled cloak plus tower/element/valor shield plus Lurker set plus boosts from Dexterity to get Evasion to about 40. Looking at that number - and in case you recall where all the gear is - you can choose to spare distributing any points here and save them for Assassination but that is up to you.
So this just for the records:
- 2 points in Dodge add 5 more to Evasion (like one more Lurker armor piece), so that's never bad
- 14 points can push Evasion to about 60
- 24 points (i.e. when you got books to spare) can push Evasion past 80

Now Assassination. This is a buff skill adding attack technics to any melee weapon used and all early technics require special positioning. Both Backstabbing and Improved Backstabbing require that you attack the back of a monster, which gets harder the faster the monsters get. Reach Attack enables melee from the backrow, but does nothing for a front row rogue. Due to this an easy to use front row assassin needs 23+ points here as you pointed out.

Looking at all this a possible front row Dagger Assassin could be 22 Dagger 2 Dodge 35+ Assassination.

[Komag]

I think 50 assassination is the coolest power in the game, but very hard to achieve in the original game

[Malenfant]

Yes,

I guess if I go with a Human rogue who gets skilled and evasive and all the 3 skillbooks, I get 52+3+15=70 skillpoints to spend, so 24 dodge + 22 daggers + 23 assasination = 69 points and a final point in daggers in case it gives a bonus.

This leaves me with a Human skilled/aura Air Mage with 18 Spellcraft + 37 Air Magic (+3 Fire Magic), a Human skilled Fighter with 16 Armours + 39 Maces and a Minotaur skilled headhunter Rogue with 50 Missile + 2 dodge.

A question for the human Fighter, which second trait should I go for with the Fighter: Evasive (+7 evasion for layered defenses), Agile (+2 Dexterity to counter the accuracy penalties of maces) or Healthy (for even more hp)?

And is it better to get 39 in Maces or to leave it at 34 and spend those 5 points in Athletics and get +1 strength and +2 vitality?

[Dr.Disaster]

A question for the human Fighter, which second trait should I go for with the Fighter: Evasive (+7 evasion for layered defenses), Agile (+2 Dexterity to counter the accuracy penalties of maces) or Healthy (for even more hp)?

Agile's +2 Dexterity for +2 Accuracy may look good to overcome accuracy penalties. But it is countered by the very first points you place into your weapon skill of choice. Reason is that each point spend in any weapon skill adds +1 Accuracy. Axes Swords and Maces also gain .5 to Attack Power per point so going for 39 Maces is the same as going for +39 Accuracy and +19.5 Attack Power.

Checking Agile's use in defences shows that Agile's +2 Dexterity are equal to +4 Evasion. Here Evasive's +7 Evasion are also a better choice, so Agile is out.

Now Healthy is a real long term investment. On creation it's +2 Vitality add +5 Health. After the adventure is started Vitality's benefits only show when characters level up as an increased chance for more points into Health. This also makes level-ups a point where players with a foible for micro-management can vent themselfs by putting all + Vitality and +Wisdom gear on the characters who's leveling up next.

Right now i can't tell how much benefit +2 Vitality will grant on average. I'll have to do some experiment to find out.

EDIT
A quick test run with 5 sample parties shows that on average +2 Vitality grant +1 Health per level up; same for Wisdom and Energie.

And is it better to get 39 in Maces or to leave it at 34 and spend those 5 points in Athletics and get +1 strength and +2 vitality?

5 points in Maces (from 34 to 39) grant
+1 vitality (raises the overall chance to gain +.5 more Health per future level up)
+2(.5) Attack Power with Maces
+5 Accuracy with Maces

5 points into Athlethics grant
+1 strength adds 3 kg to max load and .5 Attack Power
+2 vitality (raises the overall chance to gain +1 more Health per future level up)

IMO 39 Maces is the better choice.