I'm just wondering what is possible and what is not. I'm slowly getting more knowledge about scripting. You can turn off champions (and pretend they're not there, but basically they are just invisible to you) and you can teleport with scripts, but is the below possible?
Splitting your team
Let's say your rogue is much faster and agile than your fighters and your mage wants to keep safe. So, you turn off all champions but the rogue. He sneaks past some monsters in the shadows, crawls through a small opening and he's on the other side. He picks the lock and rejoins the party. All champions turned on again.
In another situation you need to press 2 buttons at the same time. Turn off 2 champions and move from A to B. Turn off all champions, teleport to A, turn on the other 2 champions and move from A to C. Press the button 1, turn off all champions, teleport to B, turn on the other 2 champions and press button 2. Of course you don't have a split screen, so this is the closest to pressing 2 buttons at the same time. Now move from B to A again, turn off all champions, teleport to C, turn on the other 2 champions, move to A, turn on all champions and move on.
In a third situation the team is in a chamber with 4 doors and each has to solo a mini level and join on the other side if they all succeed. Turn off 3 champions, let champion 1 do his thing and at the meeting point, turn off all champions, teleport to beginning, turn on the next champion, etc. When the last champion reaches the meeting point, turn on all champions.
A more realistic climbing down a pit. The team lowers one champion, turn off that champion, message on screen "are you alright down there?", turn off all champions, teleport 1 level down, turn on that lowered champion, answer back "it's safe, come down here!". Now turn off all champions, teleport one level up, turn on the above 3 champions. As each members climbs down, turn off that champion. When the last champion climbs down, teleport to level below and turn on all champions.
Mod ideas, doable or not?
Mod ideas, doable or not?
Last edited by Frenchie on Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dr.Disaster
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Re: Mod ideas, doable or not?
Anything that can be done one after another is doable as in any single player game. Situations that require simultanious actions at different locations (similar to requiring multiple players -> multiplayer) are not.
As for your examples:
EDIT
Recalling the Chakram i slightly have to modify the above "not doable". Yet it would require precise timing: toss Chakram(s), count til Chakram(s) hit target button/lever/whatever and push another button/lever/whatever at the same time in front of you. In addition such a puzzle needs to be build for Chakram(s) usage. Otherwise it remains a "not doable".
As for your examples:
Doable.Frenchie wrote:Let's say your rogue is much faster and agile than your fighters and your mage wants to keep safe. So, you turn off all champions but the rogue. He sneaks past some monsters in the shadows, crawls through a small opening and his on the other side. He picks the lock and rejoins the party. All champions turned on again.
Not doable.Frenchie wrote:In another situation you need to press 2 buttons at the same time.
Tricky but doable.Frenchie wrote:In a third situation the team is in a chamber with 4 doors and each has to solo a mini level and join on the other side if they all succeed. Turn off 3 champions, let champion 1 do his thing and at the meeting point, turn off all champions, teleport to beginning, turn on the next champion, etc. When the last champion reaches the meeting point, turn on all champions.
Doable but pointless because when it's not save and the party dies one reloads anyway.Frenchie wrote:A more realistic climbing down a pit. The team lowers one champion, turn off that champion, message on screen "are you alright down there?", turn off all champions, teleport 1 level down, turn on that lowered champion, answer back "it's safe, come down here!". Now turn off all champions, teleport one level up, turn on the above 3 champions. As each members climbs down, turn off that champion. When the last champion climbs down, teleport to level below and turn on all champions.
EDIT
Recalling the Chakram i slightly have to modify the above "not doable". Yet it would require precise timing: toss Chakram(s), count til Chakram(s) hit target button/lever/whatever and push another button/lever/whatever at the same time in front of you. In addition such a puzzle needs to be build for Chakram(s) usage. Otherwise it remains a "not doable".
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DesperateGames
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Re: Mod ideas, doable or not?
I agree with Dr.Disaster on the estimations for doable / not doable. Besides the technical aspects of character switching I think it is important to make the switching "believable" for the player. For example, if you do the "rogue goes on solo mission":
Execution A: The party arrives in a certain room and decides "Ok the rogue must go first". The rest of the party disappears instantly and you continue playing the rogue. You are in the exact same room as before. When you turn around, there in no sign of the party left.
Exceution B: The party arrives at a crack in the wall. "Oh no, we won't fit through this crack. But maybe our rogue has a chance!" Screen goes black, a sound of someone squuezing to a tight spot is played and screen fades in again at the other side of the crack, giving the impression that the rest of the party is left behind the crack in the wall. Shouting through the crack, the reparty wishes the lonely rogue good luck on his mission.
These are just examples but I hope they transfer what I mean...if you suddenly reduce or add to the party it feels weird when this is done without that the former party is still visible or without explanation what the rest of the group is doing in the meantime. But I think this idea has a lot of potential, switching to a single character in the middle of a dungeon should certainly add variety.
Execution A: The party arrives in a certain room and decides "Ok the rogue must go first". The rest of the party disappears instantly and you continue playing the rogue. You are in the exact same room as before. When you turn around, there in no sign of the party left.
Exceution B: The party arrives at a crack in the wall. "Oh no, we won't fit through this crack. But maybe our rogue has a chance!" Screen goes black, a sound of someone squuezing to a tight spot is played and screen fades in again at the other side of the crack, giving the impression that the rest of the party is left behind the crack in the wall. Shouting through the crack, the reparty wishes the lonely rogue good luck on his mission.
These are just examples but I hope they transfer what I mean...if you suddenly reduce or add to the party it feels weird when this is done without that the former party is still visible or without explanation what the rest of the group is doing in the meantime. But I think this idea has a lot of potential, switching to a single character in the middle of a dungeon should certainly add variety.
Re: Mod ideas, doable or not?
Realms of Arkania allowed for the party to split ~but also allowed for more than four members, and even allowed for party members to refuse to enter a place [and cause a split]. This could be done in LoG by simply dropping a marker on the map where you left the other party members, and only allowing them to re-join when standing next to the marker.
Fancy implementations could allow for switching between the groups; [leaving a marker for the sub-group wherever the current party was when they split, and resuming/re-enabling/IE swapping parties via hotkey].
This could allow for puzzles that close off paths while requiring a presence in two isolated areas... Like a time sensitive puzzle where one group enters a room that closes its gate to reveal a button or switch in another room... Something the full party could not manage (needing to be in two isolated places at once).
Fancy implementations could allow for switching between the groups; [leaving a marker for the sub-group wherever the current party was when they split, and resuming/re-enabling/IE swapping parties via hotkey].
This could allow for puzzles that close off paths while requiring a presence in two isolated areas... Like a time sensitive puzzle where one group enters a room that closes its gate to reveal a button or switch in another room... Something the full party could not manage (needing to be in two isolated places at once).
Re: Mod ideas, doable or not?
To make things more believable, the mage can cast an invisibility spell on members left behind. So, no need for an animation.
If you climb down a pit, the stealthy rogue goes first and if he doesn't think it's safe he must come back. He throws a lit torch down first to see if there's not a trapdoor underneath and he uses a mirror on a stick and check for mobs. After that you go down one by one or not.
Of course there is no real-time pressing 2 buttons at the same time, but I am describing the necessary script actions to make it look like it's almost at the same time.
The next step might be to try it out. I would love to see this in a mod...
Now for my next idea:
Mind controlling
This is basically teleporting and swapping with a 5th champion. I don't know if the latter is possible (if not maybe it will in LoG2)
The mage casts a spell on a solo humanoid mob and a timer starts for the period the mob still stay under control. Let's say do this with humanoid mobs not snails or worms. Different mobs have different skill sets for different situations. When the timer runs out, the mob becomes hostile to the party and the solo mob tries to return to it. All items it carried remain with the mob until you kill it or it dies.
With solo mob you have a scout and you have the turn off all champions, swap 1 champion with the 5th mob one, turn that on and move. Of course it's actions should be limited and its inventory should be empty, It can move, fight and retrieve things. If it dies, teleport to begin location and turn all champions back on. Return to its last location to retrieve important items at its corpse (if it has not disappeared yet)
As a twist if it had an important key collected from an alcove, the mob that killed him might now carry that key. If it fell into a pit with the key, you're in trouble. So, it might be wise to drop important items if you think it'll die soon.
If he joins the team, he takes over the mage position with unique abilities and skills. The mage is left behind is statis with an invisibility spell. If the timer runs out or the mob dies, the mage and mob instantly swap locations (5th mob champion replaced by team mage champion)
If others have similar brain farts, feel free to put them here. You'll never know is AH is taking notes...
If you climb down a pit, the stealthy rogue goes first and if he doesn't think it's safe he must come back. He throws a lit torch down first to see if there's not a trapdoor underneath and he uses a mirror on a stick and check for mobs. After that you go down one by one or not.
Of course there is no real-time pressing 2 buttons at the same time, but I am describing the necessary script actions to make it look like it's almost at the same time.
The next step might be to try it out. I would love to see this in a mod...
Now for my next idea:
Mind controlling
This is basically teleporting and swapping with a 5th champion. I don't know if the latter is possible (if not maybe it will in LoG2)
The mage casts a spell on a solo humanoid mob and a timer starts for the period the mob still stay under control. Let's say do this with humanoid mobs not snails or worms. Different mobs have different skill sets for different situations. When the timer runs out, the mob becomes hostile to the party and the solo mob tries to return to it. All items it carried remain with the mob until you kill it or it dies.
With solo mob you have a scout and you have the turn off all champions, swap 1 champion with the 5th mob one, turn that on and move. Of course it's actions should be limited and its inventory should be empty, It can move, fight and retrieve things. If it dies, teleport to begin location and turn all champions back on. Return to its last location to retrieve important items at its corpse (if it has not disappeared yet)
As a twist if it had an important key collected from an alcove, the mob that killed him might now carry that key. If it fell into a pit with the key, you're in trouble. So, it might be wise to drop important items if you think it'll die soon.
If he joins the team, he takes over the mage position with unique abilities and skills. The mage is left behind is statis with an invisibility spell. If the timer runs out or the mob dies, the mage and mob instantly swap locations (5th mob champion replaced by team mage champion)
If others have similar brain farts, feel free to put them here. You'll never know is AH is taking notes...
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Dr.Disaster
- Posts: 2876
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:48 am
Re: Mod ideas, doable or not?
Well that's the problem with timing things in a real-time game when they can't be done in real-time. Common workaround for such actions are timers i.e. to have multiple buttons pressed at around the right time. Actually such puzzles are already in several mods. Even the original Grimrock dungeon has a complex puzzle very close to this inside the Halls of Fire.Frenchie wrote:Of course there is no real-time pressing 2 buttons at the same time, but I am describing the necessary script actions to make it look like it's almost at the same time.
As i stated above the closest thing to build real multi-action-requirements in real-time could be done by use of the Chakram.
Basically this boils down to swapping characters.Frenchie wrote:Now for my next idea: Mind controlling
This is possible but it's something that needs to be handled very VERY carefully. Reason is that LoG currently does not entirely support char swaps. The engine lacks some required functions so side effects will happen by enabled skills not being properly reset which in return enables unavoidable exploits i.e. rogues/mages being able to wear heavy armor without penalty.
Up to my knownledge Xanathar's mod "The Sunset Gate" and Drakkan's "Eye of the Dragon" are the only mods featuring such char swaps. Both try do deal with the limitations with Xanathar really pushing it but as said it's limited by the engine.
Re: Mod ideas, doable or not?
Anti-cheating
You can use the console command to spawn a key and with setPosition you can teleport anywhere. Let's say there is a closed door with an unique lock. You can perform a double check: check if the unique key is picked up or if the door is closed and decrease the team's health to zero if the player used any of these commands.
Now you already can make it harder by renaming keys, so a square emerald key's name is m2_key and a round silver key's name is ag0_key, but is it possible to keep track of how many specific keys or other items are in the game? So, by using a spawn command there is a difference. Of course you only check for key doubles when a key is used on a lock. A continuously check will slow down the game.
And with a normal level entrance the first explored map coordinate should be at the stairs. If with setPosition you changed a level prior, there should be more explored map. With the setPosition command in menu mode and then quickly resume & esc again to map your location, you can explore a great deal of the map without bosses killing you. Is it possible to check normal map exploration? The first map visit and some specific square checks that must be explored in sequence.
Any other check after you import a super edited team in easy mode is not really cheating if you use it for mapping. But a screen warning might be necessary. Can such a check be made? For instance a vitality > 20 means edited.
You can use the console command to spawn a key and with setPosition you can teleport anywhere. Let's say there is a closed door with an unique lock. You can perform a double check: check if the unique key is picked up or if the door is closed and decrease the team's health to zero if the player used any of these commands.
Now you already can make it harder by renaming keys, so a square emerald key's name is m2_key and a round silver key's name is ag0_key, but is it possible to keep track of how many specific keys or other items are in the game? So, by using a spawn command there is a difference. Of course you only check for key doubles when a key is used on a lock. A continuously check will slow down the game.
And with a normal level entrance the first explored map coordinate should be at the stairs. If with setPosition you changed a level prior, there should be more explored map. With the setPosition command in menu mode and then quickly resume & esc again to map your location, you can explore a great deal of the map without bosses killing you. Is it possible to check normal map exploration? The first map visit and some specific square checks that must be explored in sequence.
Any other check after you import a super edited team in easy mode is not really cheating if you use it for mapping. But a screen warning might be necessary. Can such a check be made? For instance a vitality > 20 means edited.