Grimrock

Drakkan wrote: my oppinion - making so huge map without knowing some basics is a bad idea. You either end with many boring levels filled just with monsters, either you will stuck because of this size on many places and you will give up eventually.
Be on your place Id rather concentrate on lets say 6 levels big dungeon and try to bejewel it nicely. Alternatively, you can always expand it.

as a matter of fact, i have put the epic project on hold and i've started a smaller project.
this one has 9 overworld maps instead of 26, and 1 dungeon with 3 levels. i'm gonna see how it goes. spend a couple days on it.


the irony is that binding of isaac: afterbirth is coming out on steam in a couple of days and I already prepaid the $6.66 for it, and i might end up playing that for quite some time...

Dungeon crawlers are puzzles ~foremost. They thrive on the strength of the map; not the monsters in it. While the monsters are important, they are technically [and literally] in the way of solving the puzzles. A one floor map with some well done puzzles can be more entertaining and challenging ~and interesting, than a larger map of just monster filled corridors [and pressure plates ].

Isaac wrote:Dungeon crawlers are puzzles ~foremost. They thrive on the strength of the map; not the monsters in it. While the monsters are important, they are technically [and literally] in the way of solving the puzzles. A one floor map with some well done puzzles can be more entertaining and challenging ~and interesting, than a larger map of just monster filled corridors [and pressure plates ].

so you's rather solve puzzles than fight monsters? you just consider the monsters to be just another annoyiing slowing you down before you can get to the next puzzle?
I dunno I guess i had it theother way around. I looked at the puzzles as an obstacle blocking my progress toward the next encounter or the next boss.
I liked the exploration and leveling up and improving my characters so I was trying to make a huge map to explore with tons of monsters to kill to the player could end up at level 18-19 by the end of their epic adventure.


maybe it's partly because I know that if I make a map and design a lot of puzzles on it, I won't be able to play it myself because I will already know the solutions to all the puzzles. but in a map with lots of combat, there's no way around it except by using your skills, so even as the author, I could challenge myself.
during testing though, I did realize it was kind of boring just fighting monsters. sooo, I started making puzzles and I started trying to do things to the monsters so that odd things happened when they died.
I had hoped to put lots of text in notes and stuff to create lore and backstory to break up the monotony of the combat.

in the end, i realize i bit off more than i could chew so i'm follow the advice of some of you guys and i'm going to start off with a much smaller project.


every time I see your name "Isaac"...it reminds me that Binding of Isaac : Afterbirth is coming out in like 2 days...

FeMaiden wrote:...so you's rather solve puzzles than fight monsters? you just consider the monsters to be just another annoyiing slowing you down before you can get to the next puzzle?
I dunno I guess i had it theother way around. I looked at the puzzles as an obstacle blocking my progress toward the next encounter or the next boss.

I don't know that preference comes into it; they just seem to be that way (the ones I've played)... Look at "Eye of the Beholder". The the first three levels are Waterdeep's upper sewer. The pressure plates are weighted valves that redirect the flow of water; when there is water [though you never actually encounter it in the game]. On level two there is a lever that shifts many walls around to change the flow of the the drainage; but in practice it makes a shifted maze. Every level that follows never loses the puzzle aspects. None of the levels are a straight path from A to B, and they require some investigating... even if [when] empty of wandering monsters.

Ideally in Dungeon Crawlers the maps should be strong enough on their own ~without any monsters added. Then add the monsters. They are important, and fun; and they do actually stand in your way of solving (or even finding) the next puzzle; while occasionally being the next puzzle. But crawlers are not really like Doom... where the map exists for the sake of shooting everything in it. I don't think I could play through one that was only about 'clearing the mobs'.

Isaac wrote:

FeMaiden wrote:...so you's rather solve puzzles than fight monsters? you just consider the monsters to be just another annoyiing slowing you down before you can get to the next puzzle?
I dunno I guess i had it theother way around. I looked at the puzzles as an obstacle blocking my progress toward the next encounter or the next boss.

I don't know that preference comes into it; they just seem to be that way (the ones I've played)... Look at "Eye of the Beholder". The the first three levels are Waterdeep's upper sewer. The pressure plates are weighted valves that redirect the flow of water; when there is water [though you never actually encounter it in the game]. On level two there is a lever that shifts many walls around to change the flow of the the drainage; but in practice it makes a shifted maze. Every level that follows never loses the puzzle aspects. None of the levels are a straight path from A to B, and they require some investigating... even if [when] empty of wandering monsters.

Ideally in Dungeon Crawlers the maps should be strong enough on their own ~without any monsters added. Then add the monsters. They are important, and fun; and they do actually stand in your way of solving (or even finding) the next puzzle; while occasionally being the next puzzle. But crawlers are not really like Doom... where the map exists for the sake of shooting everything in it. I don't think I could play through one that was only about 'clearing the mobs'.

the toughest part of eye of the beholder I ran into was this one door deeper in the dungeon. there was seemingly no way to open it. I spent hours trying to figure it out. and it turned out there was a "new" kind of secret button that did not exist anywhere prior to that door. the secret button wa sso tiny, it was barely bigger than a couple of pixels. almost invisible. and clicking on that button opened the door. and I was like "WTF, how was anyone supposed to see that button when it didn't look like any other button i've encountered before how would I even KNOW to look for it?"

it's possible, this might be why I hate secret buttons...it's like I have "PSBSD" or (Post Secret Button Stress Disorder, to the lay person)

FeMaiden wrote:the toughest part of eye of the beholder I ran into was this one door deeper in the dungeon. there was seemingly no way to open it. I spent hours trying to figure it out. and it turned out there was a "new" kind of secret button that did not exist anywhere prior to that door. the secret button wa sso tiny, it was barely bigger than a couple of pixels. almost invisible. and clicking on that button opened the door. and I was like "WTF, how was anyone supposed to see that button when it didn't look like any other button i've encountered before how would I even KNOW to look for it?"

That would be level 11 (I bet), where you find the bones of Kirath the mage nearby. (Although the button appears first on level 4 IIRC; one such opens the secret door to the dwarven escape route ~pit.)

EoB supports keyboard control (though awkward), but IRRC, if the mouse is set to 'off'', then the 'M' key interacts with objects in front of the party, and so it was possible to just press M at a wall, and the button would be pressed automatically, if there was one.

Isaac wrote:

FeMaiden wrote:the toughest part of eye of the beholder I ran into was this one door deeper in the dungeon. there was seemingly no way to open it. I spent hours trying to figure it out. and it turned out there was a "new" kind of secret button that did not exist anywhere prior to that door. the secret button wa sso tiny, it was barely bigger than a couple of pixels. almost invisible. and clicking on that button opened the door. and I was like "WTF, how was anyone supposed to see that button when it didn't look like any other button i've encountered before how would I even KNOW to look for it?"

That would be level 11 (I bet), where you find the bones of Kirath the mage nearby. (Although the button appears first on level 4 IIRC; one such opens the secret door to the dwarven escape route ~pit.)

EoB supports keyboard control (though awkward), but IRRC, if the mouse is set to 'off'', then the 'M' key interacts with objects in front of the party, and so it was possible to just press M at a wall, and the button would be pressed automatically, if there was one.

I see...I played the SNES version, with the SNES mouse, there was no M key lol.
I probably missed the secret button on level 4 because it was so small i never even knew it was there.

(I did manage to Eye of the Beholder on snes with no walthrough, except for that secret button, that was the only place I truly got stuck, this was in the 90's before I had internet, so I had to call the Nintendo Power hotline. my mother got so pissed...)

FeMaiden wrote:(I did manage to Eye of the Beholder on snes with no walthrough, except for that secret button, that was the only place I truly got stuck, this was in the 90's before I had internet, so I had to call the Nintendo Power hotline. my mother got so pissed...)

If you are interested in some nostalgic dungeon crawlers:

http://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realm ... ection_one

http://www.gog.com/game/lands_of_lore_1_2

http://www.gog.com/game/dungeons_dragon ... oft_series

http://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realm ... tion_three

Isaac wrote:

FeMaiden wrote:(I did manage to Eye of the Beholder on snes with no walthrough, except for that secret button, that was the only place I truly got stuck, this was in the 90's before I had internet, so I had to call the Nintendo Power hotline. my mother got so pissed...)

If you are interested in some nostalgic dungeon crawlers:

http://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realm ... ection_one

http://www.gog.com/game/lands_of_lore_1_2

http://www.gog.com/game/dungeons_dragon ... oft_series

http://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realm ... tion_three

I actually had this boxed set that had all the old school D&D games like the pool of radiance series and hillsfar and the eye of the beholder series, but I had 2 issues with them

1, they still had that DRM that the old school games have where it says "look at page 6 of the manual and type the 16th word there" and then there was also supposed to be this code wheel you had to line up to get the secret words. at the time, i did not realize this information was accessible online.

2. later on i found some of the info and i tried to play the games but my computer was so powerful that I could not slow down the framerate and the game moved way too fast for me to see what was going on...

FeMaiden wrote:2. later on i found some of the info and i tried to play the games but my computer was so powerful that I could not slow down the framerate and the game moved way too fast for me to see what was going on...

To play any of these games on a modern PC under Windows/OSX, or Linux, you effectively need the DOSbox emulator, or one of it's forks. Other Emulators exist, but DOSbox emulates the hardware peripherals as well, like high-end sound cards and network adapters; great for games. It's specifically useful in that it gives precise control of the speed of the emulated PC.

DOSBox is free; I use it with the the same anthology (and original) sets that you mentioned. It makes them all click to play titles that just work ~once it's setup. I played through the EOB series, and Menzoberranzan a few months ago.

The Gog games I linked, have it all setup and tweaked.