Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Talk about anything Legend of Grimrock 1 related here.
dark
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:51 pm

Re: Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Post by dark »

Goffmog wrote:
dark wrote:
I say this as a programmer for a games developer who released a game recently which was too difficult on release due to bugs and bad design. We had to release a LOT of patches to fix it and to make it more playable/enjoyable for people. Grimrock is nothing like that, it has the gameplay mechanics spot-on and is extremely enjoyable.

I wouldn’t necessarily say that this game is spot on, it’s close I have no issues with monster balance. That’s all good. But some of the timed puzzles in this game are overly difficult to navigate. That’s where many frustrations are coming from. This is where a bit of fine tuning is going to be needed. Other than that I’m fine with the game. Everything else to me I would agree is spot on.
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cryocore
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Re: Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Post by cryocore »

dark wrote:My comments were never about having cheats in the game or cheating in anyway. Mine are about balance and how others have issues with the timing puzzles. I find it very arrogant for anyone to insinuate that just because some people have gotten through an area that others should also be able too. That is absurd thinking. I know for a fact that when developers are testing an area out that they fall into a false sense about how that puzzle works.

They tend to forget that when you have tested a puzzle over and over to the point that it could well be 200 times of testing until they feel that the timing is right. What happens is that devs tend to forget that just because they went through it and tested it many times over, that that does not mean that someone with a lessee skill can get through that area too. There are many aspects that fall into place with something like this.

Their pc, maybe it’s a lesser machine, maybe someone is not as dexterous as some. Or how about people in general don’t feel that grinding out a puzzle 100 or more times is not fun at all? Also, what I find very disturbing in general is the community sense that if someone can’t get through an area or are having issues with it that this and to quote many here “This game is not for you" That comment really pisses me off to no end. I really enjoy the game, but no one, and I mean no one here should ever suggest or state in any way that this game is not for them.
hapro wrote:While gamers often don't know what they want, they certainly know what they don't want. While LoG is a good game, it's riddled with poor design decisions - both in the gameplay and the UI. To point out these flaws is not only good but necessary so that AH can make a better game in the future that doesn't have the same problems. For a first game, people are often willing to overlook flaws. If they keep releasing more and more things with the same flaws, people will become less and less interested.
You both miss the point, and both fall in to the entitled arrogance I was talking about.
You assume your opinion about a perceived flaw is true. A subjective opinion is just that. Subjective. You are wanting changes based on your personal opinion. Granted you are perfectly entitled, but almost every argument for change come down to arrogantly stating the AH have made an error. Be it regarding the UI or the difficulty. All I am saying is that there were deliberate choices made by the team affecting a style of game they wanted to make. Your objection to it is of no consequence to anyone but yourself.

As to my comments about the game not being for anyone who finds it too hard is just simple common sense. The game is difficult by design. So therefore anyone who dislikes the difficulty, or struggles with it for any reason is by definition not someone who the game was designed for. Its no different than someone complaining about Turn Based combat in a game, or the perspective being used, or any other core design. If you dont like that aspect then obviously it wasnt meant for you.
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Dandy
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Re: Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Post by Dandy »

I demand that Almost Human, rename cryocore to crymore. :P
Dungeon Legend about the Master of Grimrock
Goffmog
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Re: Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Post by Goffmog »

dark wrote:My comments were never about having cheats in the game or cheating in anyway. Mine are about balance and how others have issues with the timing puzzles. I find it very arrogant for anyone to insinuate that just because some people have gotten through an area that others should also be able too. That is absurd thinking. I know for a fact that when developers are testing an area out that they fall into a false sense about how that puzzle works.

They tend to forget that when you have tested a puzzle over and over to the point that it could well be 200 times of testing until they feel that the timing is right. What happens is that devs tend to forget that just because they went through it and tested it many times over, that that does not mean that someone with a lesser skill can get through that area too. There are many aspects that fall into place with something like this.

Their pc, maybe it’s a lesser machine, maybe someone is not as dexterous as some. Or how about people in general don’t feel that grinding out a puzzle 100 or more times is not fun at all? Also, what I find very disturbing in general is the community sense that if someone can’t get through an area or are having issues with it that this and to quote many here “This game is not for you" That comment really pisses me off to no end. I really enjoy the game, but no one, and I mean no one here should ever suggest or state in any way that this game is not for them.
Dark, I desperately want to read something I agree with in your posts. There is a huge difference between implementing accessibility features into a game to help disabled people enjoy it, or fixing a bug that's making a puzzle impossible for people on some systems, but dumbing down a game because people can't get through something on the first try and blame the developers for not catering for their level of dexterity, or their choice of mouse/touchpad? There simply isn't a way for those players to have the game altered to give them the same level of enjoyment as someone with more perseverence would get from beating the puzzle - besides, if the dexterity required seems almost superhuman, are you sure you've found the right solution?.. No, it's like complaining that the entry requirements for the Olympics are too high and are stopping too many people from enjoying the experience of elite sporting competition. You can't have it both ways.
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Loktofeit
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Re: Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Post by Loktofeit »

Kudos to Almost Human on a truly incredible game, however I have to disagree with the rather arrogant and exaggerated portrayal of the people presenting, often constructively, feedback on the game.

Personally, I like when my game's community gives me feedback. Not only do I like it but I often make a point to ask for it. That doesn't mean I will automatically change things just because a couple posters asked for the change and it doesn't mean the people giving feedback are being 'arrogant' or 'crying' about anything. Your most avid fans are a great source of insight (among many sources) into your game.
Gudadantza
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Re: Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Post by Gudadantza »

Interface can be even better, gameplay can be even better, and there are space to improvement in a great game.

"The game is as is and in that way must be played" is an opinion so generic that can be applied to every game out there.

This is an opinion about the opinable.

I wont make any opinion about "arrogant, repugnant or casual crowd... (whatever it means)" etc, readable in every topic

If someone is Feeling himself offended with that kind of tolerance is amazing! :D
Last edited by Gudadantza on Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cryocore
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Re: Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Post by cryocore »

Dandy wrote:I demand that Almost Human, rename cryocore to crymore. :P
Seeing as I have no serious issues with the game. I am not being emotional, or dismissive but am actually trying to have an adult and constructive debate about gamer entitlement I would suggest you think a bit harder before posting something as asinine as you just did. I am not insulting or trying to demean anyone so why are attempting to do that to me?
YenRug
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Re: Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Post by YenRug »

Goffmog wrote:I say this as a programmer for a games developer who released a game recently which was too difficult on release due to bugs and bad design. We had to release a LOT of patches to fix it and to make it more playable/enjoyable for people. Grimrock is nothing like that, it has the gameplay mechanics spot-on and is extremely enjoyable.
AMY?
dark
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:51 pm

Re: Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Post by dark »

Loktofeit wrote:Kudos to Almost Human on a truly incredible game, however I have to disagree with the rather arrogant and exaggerated portrayal of the people presenting, often constructively, feedback on the game.

Personally, I like when my game's community gives me feedback. Not only do I like it but I often make a point to ask for it. That doesn't mean I will automatically change things just because a couple posters asked for the change and it doesn't mean the people giving feedback are being 'arrogant' or 'crying' about anything. Your most avid fans are a great source of insight (among many sources) into your game.
Here is someone who understands. Thanks!!

Goff, you’re really going to compare the Olympics to gaming? We are not talking about the Pro Gaming league here; we are talking about the general population and gamers in general. This is where the balance has to be made. That cannot not be over stated enough. If you guys dont understand that, then this is a pointless discussion.
hapro
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Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:24 pm

Re: Brilliant game... but. A letter to AH and complainers.

Post by hapro »

cryocore wrote:You both miss the point, and both fall in to the entitled arrogance I was talking about.
You assume your opinion about a perceived flaw is true. A subjective opinion is just that. Subjective. You are wanting changes based on your personal opinion. Granted you are perfectly entitled, but almost every argument for change come down to arrogantly stating the AH have made an error. Be it regarding the UI or the difficulty. All I am saying is that there were deliberate choices made by the team affecting a style of game they wanted to make. Your objection to it is of no consequence to anyone but yourself.
You are literally wrong. For instance, it is bad UI design to not allow players to remove a skill point from a skill before clicking some kind of "confirm" button. You might say, "oh, just don't click the wrong button," but it happens and now you're forever stuck with 1 point in a skill you never wanted with no way to get it back. Criticism can be objective.
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