Grimrock

I dunno, I kinda think the torch tree is cooler.

I hope you can hear me sighing from thousands of kilometers away.

YES! too funny

Excellent!

Malenfant wrote:Thanks a lot for the positive reception!

Merethif wrote:Shielding (...)

I really tried to fit in Heavy Armour Proficiency in there, but if you take the four elemental Shield spells, plus Light Armour Proficiency, Shield Master and a unique level 50 skill, that's already loads and loads of special skills, leaving barely any place for regular stats bonuses. No other current skilltree has that many "special", I think.

One compromise would be to forego Light Armours altogether, make Shield Master available earlier and add Heavy Armour Proficiency at level 30ish. As to the order and availability of the spells, I reckon it's a matter of balance. Poison and fire damage are super-common, so getting those early is already a big boon. The price you pay is that the other shield spells require heavier investment in the tree, having to give up other nice things in other trees.

I see. Maybe replace each shield spell with general "Elemental Shild". Something like this:

Lvl 8: Elemental Shield (gives resistance to all elements, but only half value of original shield spells)
Lvl 12: Light Armour Proficiency
Lvl 18: Heavy Armour Proficiency
Lvl 30: Shield Master (Double the evasion bonus from shields)
Lvl 38: Improve Elemental Shield (Elemental Shield grants the same amount of resistance as original shield spells, but to all elements)

Malenfant wrote:

Merethif wrote:Torch-bearer (...)

Two people have said this already, could you specify why? The basic idea is that the torch would function like any melee weapon, but the special attacks would deal fire elemental damage or heal status.

I'm not really sure about everlasting torch as well, but maybe it's not an issue after all. Also I'm not sure how it would work if character with both Favour and Torch-bearer skills triggers Smite and Singe effect at the same time. Anyway, what about undead? Torches/light/fire are usually used against those creatures - vampires, mummies and such. Hey, even Arogorn used torches against wraiths (at least in book, I don't remember how they've done it in movie). Just brainstorming.

Malenfant wrote:

Merethif wrote:Spears - I'm not sure about it really. It doesn't really fit the concept, even if you're thinking about templar, it's rather mace/sword then spear. Maybe create a whip class weapon (as a reach weapon of course). A Simon Belmont in Castlevania uses whips and since he fight vampires, which are undead, he may be considered cleric... ok it may be a bit far-fetched concept but still whips would be cool, wouldn't they? You start of with leather one and end up with spiky ball on chain

Woah, whips would be really cool to have in the game, but aren't they more of a Rogue thing usually?

Yea, that's why I said it's a bit far-fetched idea Now when I think about it if there were more spear-like polearms, like naginatas and such, it may fit an eastern worrior-priest concept quite well.

Malenfant wrote:

Merethif wrote:Unarmed (...)

I'm not sure, I've played lots of fantasy games where the "monk" is an offshoot of the clerical classes, who can choose whether to spell-casting and go full healer or exorcist or to focus on self-strengthening and go monk or crusader. Many concepts work.

I know. My concern was really more about "yet another class got this skill", rather then general concept.

___

@Sol_HSA, Brilliant!

I realize that this isn't quite the feedback you're looking for, but I'd actually prefer that Grimrock stay away from the "cleric" and similar holy-guy-who-heals-just-because inclusions. That's not to say that I dislike the idea of a character who bolsters the effectiveness or mitigates harm to its allies, but I'd favor something more akin to the Warlord of D&D 4E, Battle Captain of 13th Age (in the pen and paper RPG category) and/or the Commander hero from Eador: Genesis / Masters of a Broken World. This guy isn't inherently magical, but his combat skills are oriented toward ally-enabling, group benefits, and (to a lesser extent) enemy-debuffing due to skill at leading, or at least coordinating, the actions of those with whom he works.

In addition to obvious passive options, this would lean toward skills that result in his attacks (perhaps via some option method or perhaps set by the weapon type he uses) making a target more susceptible to his allies' attacks in some fashion, having an ability that immediately ends an ally's cooldown (although this ability would need to have a cooldown of its own), and so on. Healing and/or similar restorative abilities could be part of it, albeit less about causing 'miraculous' wound closure and (especially since health is a somewhat abstract value in these games) more about inspiring the injured to keep going despite the beating they've taken.

Merethif wrote:I see. Maybe replace each shield spell with general "Elemental Shild". Something like this:

Lvl 8: Elemental Shield (gives resistance to all elements, but only half value of original shield spells)
Lvl 12: Light Armour Proficiency
Lvl 18: Heavy Armour Proficiency
Lvl 30: Shield Master (Double the evasion bonus from shields)
Lvl 38: Improve Elemental Shield (Elemental Shield grants the same amount of resistance as original shield spells, but to all elements)

That would work, but if there's really only one spell to cast in the whole tree, we might as well leave the casting mechanic out completely and turn "Elemental Shield" into a flat elemental resistance bonus for the whole party, like the Mage's Circles of Protection.

It could work mechanically, and further pose a choice between Shielding and Divine Favour: whether you want a Cleric that's more reliable, with bonuses that are always on but somewhat less useful, or a Cleric with stronger buffs that trigger randomly. I'd like this.

Merethif wrote:I'm not really sure about everlasting torch as well, but maybe it's not an issue after all. Also I'm not sure how it would work if character with both Favour and Torch-bearer skills triggers Smite and Singe effect at the same time. Anyway, what about undead? Torches/light/fire are usually used against those creatures - vampires, mummies and such. Hey, even Arogorn used torches against wraiths (at least in book, I don't remember how they've done it in movie). Just brainstorming.

The thing with Fire being strong against undead is one of the reasons why I thought it would be good for Clerics to have a tree that specialises in Fire, rather than adding a new "holy" element or something. As for the everlasting Torch, I thought it wouldn't be that much of a stretch: Mages can already make a party independent from torches with the Light spell, and it would just mean the Cleric has a more convenient way of doing the same.

Plus, flames that never run out or last longer than expected is a pretty common miracle in lots of real-world religions. And in the dank, dark caves of Grimrock, a torch that never runs out would be a really inspiring symbol for a party at its wits' ends.

Merethif wrote:Yea, that's why I said it's a bit far-fetched idea Now when I think about it if there were more spear-like polearms, like naginatas and such, it may fit an eastern worrior-priest concept quite well.

Maybe the tree could be called "Polearms" rather than "Spears" and cover spears as well as (non-magical) bo-staffs? It would allow you to have a Cleric that uses reach weapons without blades on them, if you really want to stick to that fantasy trope.

Merethif wrote:I know. My concern was really more about "yet another class got this skill", rather then general concept.

Heh, I'm the opposite. I think it makes sense that, if someone finds themselves naked in a mysterious dungeon and didn't know whether they could rely of finding equipments, they'd really consider fighting with their fists and feet!

Neutronium Dragon wrote:I realize that this isn't quite the feedback you're looking for, but I'd actually prefer that Grimrock stay away from the "cleric" and similar holy-guy-who-heals-just-because inclusions. That's not to say that I dislike the idea of a character who bolsters the effectiveness or mitigates harm to its allies, but I'd favor something more akin to the Warlord of D&D 4E, Battle Captain of 13th Age (in the pen and paper RPG category) and/or the Commander hero from Eador: Genesis / Masters of a Broken World. This guy isn't inherently magical, but his combat skills are oriented toward ally-enabling, group benefits, and (to a lesser extent) enemy-debuffing due to skill at leading, or at least coordinating, the actions of those with whom he works.

In addition to obvious passive options, this would lean toward skills that result in his attacks (perhaps via some option method or perhaps set by the weapon type he uses) making a target more susceptible to his allies' attacks in some fashion, having an ability that immediately ends an ally's cooldown (although this ability would need to have a cooldown of its own), and so on. Healing and/or similar restorative abilities could be part of it, albeit less about causing 'miraculous' wound closure and (especially since health is a somewhat abstract value in these games) more about inspiring the injured to keep going despite the beating they've taken.

That's an interesting concept, but for me it poses a couple of problems:

- For one, the Grimrock class design so far seems like it tries to keep concepts as broad as possible: Fighters focus on being healthy and strong and wielding heavier weapons and armour, Rogues focus on being quick and accurate and wielding light or ranged weapons, Mages deal with magical effects, forgoing physical combat. In comparison, good leadership is more a character trait than a combat style, and could be displayed by anyone. Are there any special weapons only a leader type can use?

- How does this leader take control? Non-magical classes in this game currently have no way of deciding when to use their skills, it's assumed that weapon techniques are used when the character sees an opening to use them and has the stamina (energy) to do so. For a leader class, this would mean they can only offer reactive tactics, which is quite limiting, unless they get a casting system of their own.

- How do two or more leaders stack? I used to play City of Heroes, a superhero game that offered a set of skills called "Leadership" that made the team more accurate, stronger and defensive thanks to "providing good tactics". This skillset was available to any character, regardless of superpowers and in the end, nearly everyone took it, giving us superhero teams where everyone was a leader just because of the skill benefits. But does that really make sense?

I reckon that the way to make this sort of class work would require psychological manipulation to be the class's core concept, but foregoing the more "this is a fighter who can lead well" idea and more "this guy's sole talent is that he can play with minds". Some sort of Bard, possibly. But I can't quite figure out how to apply buffs and debuffs within the Grimrock mechanics, though. I could see a Bard diverting the enemy to make it easier to evade, haranguing his allies to make them think their attacks are stronger, soothing his allies with music, even masking his team with camouflage techniques or something. Controlling the enemy is something I find more iffy, though, since so much of the game revolves around enemy positioning.

I was thinking of a way to implement two handed weapons in Grimrock, where a two handed weapon simply appears in both hands when you hold it.
Classic Diablo.

Bumping this thread to have it moved.