Grimrock

thats right. mapping additional mouse-buttons would probably help.

otherwise: I think some things can stay as designed, and gamers simply have to learn them! you also have to remember spell-runes, don't you? so why not remember which button does what? you also have to learn some control schemes in other games, no? at least I don't remember any point+click adventures where you could map the buttons of the mouse ...

Mameluk wrote:

Crise wrote: snip

Left button is used for most inventory functions. It's not intuitive to have some of the inventory management happen with the left button and some with the right button. You have to stay consistent.

The keyword in the above is most. So with your logic, because you use weapons with right click, then it is bad that switches are used with left click.

In the context of combat, which is more important... kicking that spiders face in or sorting your equipment? The former, I would think. Left click is the "main" mouse button, so it should always have the most high priority action tied to it (which in combat is attacking).

Also... when casting spells you can fire a spell with the left mouse button, if I remember right, talk about consistency. You know, if we had attack hotkeys in the game I wouldn't even have started this topic.

Fonzman wrote:otherwise: I think some things can stay as designed, and gamers simply have to learn them! you also have to remember spell-runes, don't you? so why not remember which button does what? you also have to learn some control schemes in other games, no? at least I don't remember any point+click adventures where you could map the buttons of the mouse

It is not about adapting or not adapting (if I wasn't adapting I wouldn't be playing the game right now, would I?). But you are asking people to go against something that has been "programmed" into them by using a computer for a long time. It is different when you have a console and a controller for example, there the controls were more varied from the start, on PC not as much.

I recall at least a couple reviews also mentioning the oddness of right click for combat. That is not to say left click for "quick equip" is bad, because quite the contrary it is convenient.

Mameluk wrote:

Crise wrote: snip

Left button is used for most inventory functions. It's not intuitive to have some of the inventory management happen with the left button and some with the right button. You have to stay consistent.

The use of spell casting requires the initiation with the right mouse button, then the casting with the left mouse button. Not consistent.

Crise wrote:That is not to say left click for "quick equip" is bad, because quite the contrary it is convenient.

I am going to click to attack in this game many more times than I will equip/unequip, and in all of the time I have used a mouse, the right mouse button was a secondary one if it was even present. I feel the left mouse button should be configurable for primary actions such as manipulating the game enviroment as well as all attacking/spellcasting duties, leaving the right mouse button for other things such as equipping, opening character sheets/inventory, etc. As soon as things start to matter in combat, I automatically start to left-click, and that leads to frustration.

Any time I am thinking about the controls rather than the game, it takes me out of the game.

Cheers

Crise wrote: snip

Okay, this is nitpicking. In the inventory, you move items with left button, right? So how about suddenly changing this to make it so that you move items with the right button. Inconsistent? Yeah, I thought so. The rest of your post is just opinions, and I'm not here to discuss bias.

Like I said, there's no harm in having the option, so why are you arguing about this anyway? Just take it to the developers if you want attention.

Crash wrote: The use of spell casting requires the initiation with the right mouse button, then the casting with the left mouse button. Not consistent.

Hey, it's not my design, but I think it makes sense (sort of). When I first played the game, I clicked the hand with the right button (obviously because that's what you always do when using the hands to do something), and instinctively clicked the runes with left button.

Fonzman wrote:thats right. mapping additional mouse-buttons would probably help.
otherwise: I think some things can stay as designed, and gamers simply have to learn them! you also have to remember spell-runes, don't you? so why not remember which button does what? you also have to learn some control schemes in other games, no? at least I don't remember any point+click adventures where you could map the buttons of the mouse ...

To force folk to get used to a poorly implemented User Interface is like asking squirrels to use ladders to climb trees!

Mameluk wrote: Okay, this is nitpicking. In the inventory, you move items with left button, right? So how about suddenly changing this to make it so that you move items with the right button. Inconsistent? Yeah, I thought so.

First things first, the character portraits that include the characters hands are not part of the inventory. It is an independent UI that is always present on screen. The inventory UI equivalent of characters hands would be the equipment slots (located left and right of the chest piece slot respectively).

Also if you had been paying attention to topic, I am not simply suggesting "reverse all the functionality". What I have been sporadically saying in this topic is that mouse actions should be contextual. For instance the suggestion earlier that it is possible to assign left click to do different things based on condition such as: "do I have item 'in hand', ie. did I just pick a stone from the floor", for example.

While above suggestion is not perfect, as I pointed out myself earlier, it is one way to tie more than one action into a single mouse even "left click" (usually software acts on "left button up", see below) by making it dependent on surrounding factors. Also here is something more... a mouse is not actually just two buttons (even if all you had is the very basic mouse with two hardware buttons).

From software point of view, as an input method, mouse has the following states for its buttons:
- left button down
- left button up
- right button down
- right button up

Then either the operating system or the software can derive the following additional events:
- double click (generally associated with the left button, but nothing prevents it for being done for the right button).
- mouse button held [for X units of time].

If your mouse happens to have a scroll wheel, then these come as a bonus:
- middle button down
- middle button up
- scroll up
- scroll down

Mameluk wrote: The rest of your post is just opinions, and I'm not here to discuss bias.

Maybe so, but opinion does not equal bias. In interface design there are something called conventions, when something breaks these conventions it is to be expected for differing opinions to rise. For example when creating a software you don't make a button that is "pressed" by right clicking on it, if you do it is an exception, even though it is perfectly valid to make such button a user can be expected to question whether there is sufficient reasoning behind this unexpected behavior.

Typically a button is defined by having two states: pressed or not, the button may or may not reset its state immediately after being pressed or only on subsequent presses. However, in the case of grimrocks "hand" buttons there are alternate states that can be called attach and detach for example. The states can not coexist ie. you can not press and attach at the same time, so in other words the hand icon in grimrock is a hybrid between a "slot" and the more conventional button.

Now, the only question I am posing on this topic is which of these two actions is more important? It is basically a fact that left click is the primary button for mouse (sometimes also referred as button one of a two button mouse for example). So I assume that the devs imply that attacking is the secondary action in a dungeon crawler when it comes to weapons because of this (even though without combat, the loot would loose all value).

Mameluk wrote: Like I said, there's no harm in having the option, so why are you arguing about this anyway? Just take it to the developers if you want attention.

If this topic is not enough to get someones attention, then I am not going to go and plead for someone to notice it. I am also not arguing, you made an argument (as in a statement, not an argument as in argue) and I simply provided a counter-argument for yours. It is called backing ones opinions with facts your argument just didn't have much substance to it (you assume something always on screen is part of a system that is not always on screen, and thus should adhere to the conventions of the latter) so I didn't spend so much time on my counter.

Oh look, more opinions. Not like I was expecting anything else. Are you even trying to come to a conclusion, or are you doing this just for fun? Some sick, personal fun you get out of nitpicking and elaborating on your meaningless opinions?

So let's say I pick an item and put it in the hand of my character using only the left button. Later, I change my mind and want to take that item away, but I can't, because for some reason the left mouse button is not working anymore and instead, my character is swinging the air! How inconvenient. Why can I not use one button for combat, and one button for everything else? Instead, I'm required to learn this unconventional way of interacting with the items my characters are using.

Look, it doesn't matter if the party frames are separate from the inventory, it's still more consistent to be able to move items (as in all items universally) with the left button. Moving items around does not require two separate buttons. It's something called conventions, look it up. I don't think I can name any game that suddenly changes the controls for the way some objects behave depending on where they are placed in the UI. Likely because developers (Almost Human included) can see that it's unneeded, no matter the case.

And that is why I call it unintuitive. You don't need more than one button for moving items around, and for anyone to say otherwise is beyond me. Also, there's no ground for left button being the primary button of the mouse. It's not a fact, it's just you being delusional. It's just a button like the rest of them. You don't say enter or space bar is the primary button of the keyboard just because you use them a lot. That's just ludicrously simple-minded.

The developers decided to make the right mouse button dedicated for combat, and the left button dedicated for inventory and menus. What more is there to discuss? They wanted to stay consistent, which they did, and reasons why you want to break this balance do not greatly interest me.

Here is how to do it:

Click the “Start” menu and then click “Control Panel”, click the icon named “Mouse”. There is an option to switch the mouse buttons:



Now ALL (!!!!) 'mouse click functions' on your system (and in the game) are reverted.

Better make a shortcut to the mouse icon in the control panel for your desktop, because you most certainly want it only for playing LoG.

I wondered why all people where wanting the attack function on the right button, where I had it on the left and wanted it on the right.
Then I remembered that I, as a left-hander, have checked this switch function in the control panel all the time. So I have to switch it off for playing. Attacking feels MUCH better now for me, but all the rest not so much anymore (opening doors etc.).

First minus point in LoG I found.

Please implement this in the game options AH.

I considered this, but as you say, the other functions such as manipulating the game environment or clicking on the menu items also become reversed. Clearly there are some people that are content with how the developers have implemented the mouse buttons, while others would prefer the option to choose which buttons perform certain actions. I hope that there will be a way to satisfy both groups.