Grimrock

Ok, i think this is the last revision I'll make before I finally start. It's pretty cheesy, but should be effective. Rather than try to spread abilities around for variety, I'm trying to min max. Also, just want to mention that in previous posts I didnt realize that only 4 armor, not 5, was needed for the perk.

2x Lizard Barbarians
Endure Elements
STR/DEX
5 heavy
4 armor
First guy gets 3 dodge (with accuracy trait), second guy gets 1 crit (with muscular trait)
Rest into Accuracy (or more crit, if they aren't missing often)

Changed the battlemage into a barbarian. Apparently there are plenty of good heavy weapons to go around. I don't need freeze that much if I don't have a backstabber, the alchemist should be able to handle CC with concentration. I'll probably have one in a shield and one with a 2H for a while. The 1 crit is for that endgame weapon mentioned earlier. Thinking about switching Muscular for Fast Metabolism for the potion bonus.

Lizard Rogue
Endure Elements/Agile
DEX/VIT
5 Missile
5 Crit
4+ Alchemy

Giving this guy Missile+Alchemy seems to fit this group better - both points wise and in melee/range split. Hopefully I don't need to put many/any points in accuracy due to dex focus, but this guy would be a good contender for skill tomes. Considering using Endurance instead of Agile here to help out with party weight.

Lizard Alchemist
Endure Elements/Fast Metabolism
VIT/WIL
5 Fire
3 Air
5 Concentration

Without Alchemy, he's free to pump concentration for more energy, which lizardman slightly lowers, and the effectiveness of utility spells since we only have 1 mage this time. Fast Metabolism is primarily for energy regen and will hopefully be a bit more useful than Aura.

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Let me know what you think. I think the traits could be improved.

Should be fine. It's nowhere near as cheesy as it could be.

feathy wrote:Ok, i think this is the last revision I'll make before I finally start.

...

Here are my final tips:
Barbarians: They are perfectly fine. For them, Dodge is more for flavour than anything (higher evasion, lower attack CD. Evasion won't matter much because he will tank pretty well with heavy armor later in the game). I would switch Dodge for Critical/Accuracy as I mentioned before, but this is pure personal preference (higher damage vs higher defense).
The second guy getting 1 point in Crit is pretty good. Yes, it's because of the Heavy Weapon that I mentioned. The weapon is so good that I found it through mid game and finished the game with it.
EDIT: I would switch the race of one of the barbarians to Minotaur, which was your initial plan. Getting the benefits from collecting skulls is pretty cool (+fun factor).

Spellcaster: Do you want to make the best mage in the game? The one that is capable of casting any spell in any situation and has enough energy for it? Start with a human, give him the Skilled and Fast Learner traits. Acquire the +25% XP necklace (There are two of them in game) and give him all +skill books. Your spellcaster will finish the game with about 19 skill points. You read it that right. 19. My wizard mastered Fire Magic (+50 fire protection), Air Magic (+50 shock protection), and had 3 points in Concentration, Earth Magic, and Water Magic. I would never take this character off my party unless I chose two or more spellcasters for my group.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that my wizard finished with 300+ energy and 100 resist for all elements (I gave him some of the +resist potions). And as I said, he was a human.

Rogue/Alchemist: You don't need an Alchemist. There are so many herbs in the game that you only need these extra herbs in case you want to cheese with +STAT potions. Still, it's a matter of going for more DPS (Rogue) or more utility (Alchemist).
In BOTH CASES, alchemy is your top priority here. Start with 1 Missile, 1 Alchemy, and pump Alchemy to 4. Yes, you'll want to invest 4 points in Alchemy as soon as possible, even before investing in Missile Weapons. The reason is because the BETTER health/energy potions unlocked at level 4 come at no EXTRA COST.
Then you either finish the Alchemy Tree (5 points), or you invest in Missile Weapons/Critical/Accuracy. Personally, you only find the scroll that reveals what potion you can brew with Level 5 Alchemy later in the game, so I wouldn't rush it to level 5.
You are right that you don't need so much Accuracy because you'll find +DEX items, +DEX potions and the character has a naturally high DEX stat.
For this character, Agile or Agressive are better than Endurance, in my opinion.

Fred1 wrote:You don't need an Alchemist. There are so many herbs in the game that you only need these extra herbs in case you want to cheese with +STAT potions. Still, it's a matter of going for more DPS (Rogue) or more utility (Alchemist).

Well you don't need any specific class. An alchemist offers more than every other class individually though. They can make your frontline survive pretty much indefinitely with healing potions, they can keep your mages energy pool up for an eternity with energy potions, they can make your DPS have virtually infinite strength with rage potions, they can themselves do higher DPS than any other class with their bombs, they can duplicate permanent +stat potions, etc, etc.

So long as you don't consider alchemist using their full potential as cheating, they are the strongest class by a large margin.

Jad wrote:So long as you don't consider alchemist using their full potential as cheating, they are the strongest class by a large margin.

If you where not supposed to dupe that herb then they would have just made it impossible to dupe.

Even as it is you only net a couple of them extra unless you go way out of your way to run in circles.

Fred1 wrote:You don't need an Alchemist. There are so many herbs in the game that you only need these extra herbs in case you want to cheese with +STAT potions. Still, it's a matter of going for more DPS (Rogue) or more utility (Alchemist).

I would not count this as cheese any more then optimizing a race/class to maximize its effectiveness. It is no more cheesey Then building a raw Tank of a Minotaur and stacking every +str thing you can find on them.

You are just using the game the way the game makers developed it. It is not like you are using some arcane exploit that got through QA or the such.

Now if your running in circles for hours to dupe herb then yes that is kind of cheesey but even that is no more cheesey then using respawnable mobs to grind extra levels.

Saice wrote:I would not count this as cheese any more then optimizing a race/class to maximize its effectiveness.

I wasn't really talking about crystal flowers. There are much more abusive things you can do with alchemy...

Did you know rage potions stack with each other? Drink as many as you want then go hit something for thousands and thousands of damage. You can easily 1shot even the final boss.

Or what about bombs. Did you know you can attack from the inventory screen with these? There is no cooldown at all, you can throw out bombs in rapid fire as fast as you can click. Either freeze a whole room with frost bombs or just kill everything in sight with machine gun shock bombs.

I really don't think the devs intended you to do those things, but that is the way alchemy was designed so who knows.

I have seen a player streaming running 4 Alchemists, 2 in front specced with heavy weapons, 1 on the back also with heavy weapons with 2 points in accuracy and another one specced into magic, he had a character with like 30 STR and most of his attributes over 20, basically he could keep getting all those things you need in order to make those attribute potions at a very fast pace and without worrying too much.

Even his typical party in his previous run wasnt able to do so well.

Jad wrote: I wasn't really talking about crystal flowers.

Only that is just what you said

Jad wrote: in case you want to cheese with +STAT potions.

Stacking potions if it is not intended should be bug reported.
Thorwing things from the inventory is not a big deal over all as it really is sub optimal outside of bomb throwing.

Saice wrote:Only that is just what you said

It was another user whom said that not me.

Throwing bombs from inventory can be very game breaking though, same with Rage potion stacking. I can only assume they were intended, since both mechanics should've been obvious to the developers. Still they are overpowered as hell and can turn any difficulty in the game to a triviality.