Grimrock

This thread certainly took an interesting turn.

Steam has some convenience features, but I will purchase games from almost any other source before I purchase from Steam. And some games, if they only available on Steam, I just don't buy them. GOG.com really is one of the better things to happen for gaming (though this GOG Galaxy stuff has me worried - we'll see how they handle it!).

Steam is a very intrusive program and you must have faith in Valve to use their distribution method. It has it's advantages, including it's convenience factors, but that comes at a price. I can understand people who have decided that the tradeoffs are worth it, but it seems a bit silly to argue that they don't exist.

I'm one of those people who likes to play games on their laptop while traveling or visiting relatives, but many times have been stuck because I forgot to enable offline mode before leaving for the trip. Good luck getting a secure internet connection on a train going through central California. I've also been unable to play a copy of a game because it was "disabled" when I clicked on it. As well I had several cases just in the past year where I would launch a game and Steam would tell me that it must be updated before launching (You can click disable updates, but some games Steam will not let you launch without updating), then for some reason the update would never download. Never got an answer from Steam as to what was wrong, but either my connection to their server was getting dropped somewhere along the route, or they were running maintenance, who knows. The point is that my ability to use product that I paid for is not up to me - it's up to Valve. With games on GOG, or like 90% of games during the 90's and early 2000's, I keep a digital copy of the install file on my RAID, including any patches, and if I want to play it, I just fire it up and play it. Visiting my folks for a week and have access to their PC? Just take whatever games I want on a flash drive and install them. With Steam, you have to first install an intrusive program on their computer that uses up system resources, then you have to download possibly 6gb+ of install files over the internet. That can take quite a while. The idea of "all your games in one place, whenever you want them" only really holds up if you're always using the same computer.

I won't lambast anyone for using Steam, but I do think that Steam is taking the gaming industry in the wrong direction - that is, removing power from the end user.

got to chime in...
not to go over more immediate issues but a long term view...

When it comes to steam it ends in primarily the same way in an argument
steam is convenient, I trust steam, look at all these games.
steam has obstructed my access and freedom and control over a game I bought.
of course there are many other discussions to be had but those are the general ones.

the point is and this is long term. Steam has changed the landscape of gaming. It is more like a centralized television broadcasting station than a game repository. And most of all it is a demographics tracker and a control spigot for what goes out and in.
This is fine for the hundreds of mimic games out there but it is becoming increasingly problematic for those of us who simply want to have our systems as we want them. This type of system (which did not evolve over night) is a stepping stone to greater control over our systems taken from us. Sooner or later we will literally use remote pcs that have installed games on them and we will simply have controllers and a media center that pulls from those systems.
We will not be able to open our cases or our computers. We will not have cds or back ups. They will all be cloud based. It will be quasi illegal and quite cumbersome to actual have physical copies. And what happens in that type of system when a rule is broken... (access denied) What happens when something is perhaps controversial or deemed inappropriate for that remote system that you rent... (removal without any discussion) For many this ease of use and lack of needing to diagnose our systems or make a game work will be fantastic. For many as I see it so much today even the loss over control over being denied access or that remote system being wiped of "inappropriate" material will be ok. Overall it will also mean a greater loss of control and privacy and freedom. Which I am not sure many really care about anymore. Put the turtle in slow warming water...! But for those of us who do want privacy freedom and control Steam is more of a pivotal system that changed the landscape of ownership of games. It is not evil or bad it just took access we used to freely have away. As it is if I want to install where I want a steam game to go I have to hack it just to put it on a specific drive. And if I open a steam folder there is so many tracking and open door online stuff it is amazing. I do not like not knowing what is going on my pc. And as per steam rules I am not allowed to open those things or change that directory. For the average person that is fantastic. For me it is simply a slide to a total loss over my own computer. Yes an extreme statement but take a look at historical context here. DRM is not so much the issue as is the fact that it is forced on me when I purchase from steam. And that is not forced by one single registration of a key code but every time I boot it up or a game via steam. And as with Skyrim they had an offline mode which was not really an offline mode. You could still watch packets being sent back and forth. Again most people could care less about packets being sent back and forth right... Steam is convenient and it has indeed created a place where many games can be obtained for cheap.

However even that cheaper game purchases is causing an issue. Thank goodness for kickstarter honestly because in the current state of things as Steam quite readily shows there is such an abundance of games that production is like machine shop now. Centralized control of anything is a bad idea in the long run. Steam makes huge profit for simply holding data and tracking demographics of game players and buyers. No matter if it has benevolent goals in mind any form of centralized control sooner or later becomes used for more and more control.

I look at the Steam issue and the evolution from outrage over a loss of control to apathy over that same loss as a problem. One in which when it is fully embedded will take great effort to undo. Hence why history repeats itself. And why the arguments for this type of control usually involve a very short sighted and more self centered view.

To each his own but I am thankful that more and more companies are going DRM free because they potentially see that the control the current always on DRM systems have in place are not going to help game developers in the long term. Steam is becoming the mega producer of games and it really never took on that title. It pays no one for development. It pays no salary to designers or developers and then it absorbs a large profit for simply holding data and distributing it. Not only can it track everything in and out. It as an entity does so very little work in comparison.
And as far as the benefit outweighs the loss I think even those who like or adamantly support steam will not like playing their games on remote systems that can go down whenever for maintenance and can be purged if some arbitrary decision is made without your knowledge. And that is what Steam has set up as a potential future.

And let us be real. For those who truly get upset about Steam being criticized are mostly psychologically compelled to defend it because they feel that their decision to use it and the criticism of it somehow equates to a criticism of themselves.
And the bigger picture gets ignored!

badhabit wrote: He, slow down.
I'm appreciate your input, no question. Also, I don't hate Valve or Steam (it could be worse), I just think I could be also significantly better.
And, currently we have gog.com as counter balance, which is very good. As long as we have no monopoly, things are ok ...if steam becomes a monopoly (or starts to to fight more aggressive for dominance), I will be REALLY concerned... currently, the PC gaming situation is OK.

(PS: indeed, source code open for games would be a good thing. Think on all this old game classics, which can't be updated for modern resolutions, wide screen, Windows 8 or linux support... what a shame! Releasing games as open source also not stop companies in selling them, see for instance: Arx Fatalis, Jagged Alliance 2 or another one of these games)

Didn't mean to come over like I had to slow down, sorry if I sounded like that.

I'm not an uncritical Steam supporter, and of course Steam needs competition. GoG, even Origin or UPlay are good for that reason. But overall I like to think that people only see the negative sides of Steam and not what it did for PC gaming. Steam did definitely help in making the PC market more attractive and profitable for developers. You may not believe it, but the convenience and ease of use Steam offers is a very big selling factor of it. You have all your games in one small app, you can download them whenever you want, as often as you want with the highest download speed possible. You have a forum for each game, there is Steam Workshop for many games. You have guides, walkthrougs etc. The games get automatic updates (and in 99.9% of cases this is a good thing). You can see which games your friends are playing and join them with a single mouse-click. And so on, and so on. I don't have proof, but I strongly believe that a huge amount of people stopped pirating games because they preferred to use an extremely convenient service like Steam. I know a lot of people who will refuse to buy a game only because it's not available on Steam.

Whether or not to release the source code is up to the developer, but I can understand if a developer doesn't want to release the code of his newly released game.

Rithrin wrote: Steam has some convenience features, but I will purchase games from almost any
I won't lambast anyone for using Steam, but I do think that Steam is taking the gaming industry in the wrong direction - that is, removing power from the end user.

You don't have to enable offline mode while online, at least not where I live. Just a while ago I had no Internet for half an hour or so for technical reasons and I could still play Steam games. It just told me 'bla bla you have no Internet connection, do you want to start the game in offline mode? Achievments/cloud storage will be disabled.'.

If you are honest you have to admit that it's most likely a problem on your end when 99% of Steam users don't have a problem with updates. Sure, Steam support could have been more helpful. But in the end googling is more effective anyway.

Steam eating system resources is yet another one of those flawed arguments I used myself years ago. In reality no gaming computer that was made in the last decade will work even 0.1% slower because of Steam running in the background.

You know that you can copy install files of your Steam games just like any other files? Put them on your flash drive and...tada...after installing Steam you can play the game without downloading any additional data from Steam. It will validate the files you copy/pasted, but that's it. Actually much faster than using a traditional installer since you can skip installing the game.

sapientCrow wrote:got to chime in...
not to go over more immediate issues but a long term view...

Maybe you shouldn't make so many assumptions. It's not like Steam is forcing people to make use of it. People want Steam. They like it, because it's convenient. If Steam goes in the wrong direction people will stop using it. Simple as that. You make it sound like you are smart and Steam users are dumb. But maybe you are just oversensitive and negative and most other people are not. I don't know what you mean with 'privacy' and 'freedom'. We're talking about computer games here. Yes, I do not care if Valve knows that I'm currently playing Grimrock 2. And I do not care that I need the Steam client to download the game. Why should I? It's a philosophical matter at best, but nothing else. It's not like I give anything away that I would personally consider 'private'. And if I get a fast download speed I don't care if I get the files from dropbox, GoG, Steam or any other source. Do you refuse to use Google because they collect data about you? That's far, far worse than anything Steam does and it still doesn't matter to most people, probably including you.

And we all know that if someones criticizes something it is always because it equates to critcism of himself? Seriously? This isn't even an argument, it just basically means 'If you like what I don't like you are stoopid'. You can't be serious about that.

Phitt wrote:

Rithrin wrote: Steam has some convenience features, but I will purchase games from almost any
I won't lambast anyone for using Steam, but I do think that Steam is taking the gaming industry in the wrong direction - that is, removing power from the end user.

You don't have to enable offline mode while online, at least not where I live. Just a while ago I had no Internet for half an hour or so for technical reasons and I could still play Steam games. It just told me 'bla bla you have no Internet connection, do you want to start the game in offline mode? Achievments/cloud storage will be disabled.'.

If you are honest you have to admit that it's most likely a problem on your end when 99% of Steam users don't have a problem with updates. Sure, Steam support could have been more helpful. But in the end googling is more effective anyway.

Steam eating system resources is yet another one of those flawed arguments I used myself years ago. In reality no gaming computer that was made in the last decade will work even 0.1% slower because of Steam running in the background.

You know that you can copy install files of your Steam games just like any other files? Put them on your flash drive and...tada...after installing Steam you can play the game without downloading any additional data from Steam. It will validate the files you copy/pasted, but that's it. Actually much faster than using a traditional installer since you can skip installing the game.

They may have changed how Offline mode works, granted, it's been a long time since I used Steam to play a game while away from an internet connection (So many excellent DRM free games out there in the last few years).

The few technical problems I brought up were just that, few, sure. I brought them up not because I believe Steam is designed poorly or lacking in technical expertise, but to showcase the main thrust of my argument. Those few problems are reminders that it is not you, the end user, who ultimately has control over the product that you paid for. It doesn't matter how unlikely it is that the Steam servers would ever completely shut down or the internet is destroyed by foreign powers, the simple fact is that basically one guy has the power to shut off everything in one click. It's the same reason I'd never own an iPhone. There's (mostly) nothing technically wrong with them, but I object from a morality standpoint.

I tried to stay away from any political aspect with my post, but sapientCrow pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's about whether one values privacy and freedom more than convenience. It doesn't surprise me at all that Steam is popular - people have been signing away their rights and powers to governments at an alarming rate over the last decade and a half - as it's quite clear that your average person either believes that the benefits are worth those costs or are wholly ignorant of them. I'm not saying that people who prefer convenience are "wrong", because only they have access to their internal value preferences, but merely make the argument that I think they are undervaluing freedom and privacy. That's it. No matter what, we'll just have to see what the future of gaming holds and whether it becomes more open or less.

msyblade wrote:The Irony of DRM being that, of course, every drm game on Steam is cracked a day after release and pirated freely. It's not like the pirates suffer, the consumer suffers. One of the foremost reasons we as a community fully support Almost Human; Because Almost Human supports the community, whole-heartedly. Thanks again guys, you do it right, and we truly do appreciate the efforts and sacrifices you give in order to support our experience.

I have bought quite some games on the humble bundle but I didn't redeem a single steam key. Some games in bundles I will never play because I don't have steam anymore.

The weird thing is that not only is a pirated version cheaper than the real version, it's actually better! It's easier to install, gives the "owner" more control over patches, locations etc. It wouldn't be the first time I download a pirated game because the copy I bought is unusable due to drm nonsense.

Furthermore, I first downloaded a torrent from the GOG version of Grimrock 2. I tried it and within half an hour I bought it due to the quality of the game. Grimrock 2 having the original drm free version on torrent is what made me buy the game in the first place.

any6 wrote:Point 1. The weird thing is that not only is a pirated version cheaper than the real version, it's actually better! It's easier to install, gives the "owner" more control over patches, locations etc.

Point 2. Furthermore, I first downloaded a torrent from the GOG version of Grimrock 2. I tried it and within half an hour I bought it due to the quality of the game.

Ok, point 1, I know is false. While it is 'cheaper' and a shitty thing to do, I can see some reason to do it. Some DRM in games do make them unplayable and cracked/pirated versions fix those. But even so, should still buy the game if you liked it. Also the control over patches? That is total bullshit now a days. Back years ago, it was because Devs would put the patch on their site so anyone can download it. Now everything is through GoG, Steam, or the game auto gets the patch from their server. The problem being it will check that the game is a legit copy each time. So yeah, now a days? It's next to impossible to patch a game up, those 'patches' you download for Pirated games are recreated and cracked to be put into that single cracked/pirated version of the game, they usually are not the true original patch files. An example is a game being 'cracked' but 2 different 'groups' of people. A patch made by 1 of the 'groups' will almost NEVER be able to be used on the other 'group's' version of the game, because they crack the game in a different way and the files are set up differently.

Point 2. This I kinda agree with. Since not every computer can play every game, I usually Pirate a game first to see if I can actually play it, and see if I like the controls and how it handles. Then if yes, I buy the game. It was how I did it with LoG 1, I pirated that, played and beat it, then bought it and went through it 4 more times with different builds then went through some of the mods too.

And a Point 3 for you, if you own a Pirated copy of a game, you can NOT play multiplayer with it. You can trick it to play Lan, but not the actual Multiplayer and on the official servers.

Pirating games is not all bad, but as most pirated torrents will tell you, and even cracked installers too. If you like the game, BUY IT!

---

But yeah, anyways, onto the topic. Ahem. Rather you like steam or not, no matter who is right or wrong. It IS nice that there IS an option for those that don't want to use Steam. As much as I love steam, and don't understand why some people fear it with a passion, I like that there are options for those that don't use it. I like people having choices to enjoying their games, because as the end of the day that is what gaming is about. Being enjoyed by the customers.

Jirodyne wrote:

any6 wrote:Point 1. The weird thing is that not only is a pirated version cheaper than the real version, it's actually better! It's easier to install, gives the "owner" more control over patches, locations etc.

Point 2. Furthermore, I first downloaded a torrent from the GOG version of Grimrock 2. I tried it and within half an hour I bought it due to the quality of the game.

Ok, point 1, I know is false. While it is 'cheaper' and a shitty thing to do, I can see some reason to do it.

My point basically was that pirated games are de facto free. It's shitty and I've started to buy all the games I used to pirate as a kid. That said, if pirates already have the economic advantage, DRM also gives them the quality advantage. If the free version is of higher quality than the legal version, something is horribly wrong.

Point 2. This I kinda agree with. Since not every computer can play every game, I usually Pirate a game first to see if I can actually play it, and see if I like the controls and how it handles. Then if yes, I buy the game. It was how I did it with LoG 1, I pirated that, played and beat it, then bought it and went through it 4 more times with different builds then went through some of the mods too.

Demo's have become the exception rather than the rule so often this is the only way to test the waters. I don't want to discuss piracy any further.

General notice: if you like a game, buy it. But nothing wrong with trying before buying.

And a Point 3 for you, if you own a Pirated copy of a game, you can NOT play multiplayer with it. You can trick it to play Lan, but not the actual Multiplayer and on the official servers.

I don't do multi-player much

Although I'd kill for a Grimrock 2 arena.

Pirating games is not all bad, but as most pirated torrents will tell you, and even cracked installers too. If you like the game, BUY IT!

qft.

But yeah, anyways, onto the topic. Ahem. Rather you like steam or not, no matter who is right or wrong. It IS nice that there IS an option for those that don't want to use Steam. As much as I love steam, and don't understand why some people fear it with a passion, I like that there are options for those that don't use it. I like people having choices to enjoying their games, because as the end of the day that is what gaming is about. Being enjoyed by the customers.

Indeed. Having options is important. I personally don't like steam for various reasons and I used to like it for others. Everyone makes that balance and that balance can change (as it did for me).

To make this about grimrock again, options are important, otherwise you'd only have minotaur and rogue as the race/class option.

And to that I raise the glass to Grimrock 2 being a steam game too!

Biggest Steam selling point for me has always been the auto-updating. I do not miss the 90's and mid-2000's with having to hunt down and install patches manually for games. Not to mention the "prerequisite" patching where you couldn't just get one all-inclusive (rollup) patch, some games required you install 5-6 patches in a specific order.

When I launch Steam, I know that the game I want to play will always be on the latest version. Its not uncommon to launch Steam after being away for a few weeks, and see 5+ games auto-updating. Love it. I even subscribed to the LoG2 beta channel - boom got an update yesterday. Life is good.

So, enjoy your borked, virus-infested, outdated games, pirates. I'm amazed the mods even allow some people in this thread to openly discuss how they pirate games - not exactly the brightest bulbs.

mvdeckard wrote:Biggest Steam selling point for me has always been the auto-updating. I do not miss the 90's and mid-2000's with having to hunt down and install patches manually for games. Not to mention the "prerequisite" patching where you couldn't just get one all-inclusive (rollup) patch, some games required you install 5-6 patches in a specific order.

When I launch Steam, I know that the game I want to play will always be on the latest version. Its not uncommon to launch Steam after being away for a few weeks, and see 5+ games auto-updating. Love it. I even subscribed to the LoG2 beta channel - boom got an update yesterday. Life is good.

So, enjoy your borked, virus-infested, outdated games, pirates. I'm amazed the mods even allow some people in this thread to openly discuss how they pirate games - not exactly the brightest bulbs.

Yeah... Steam is convenient, we had that point. Convenience is orthogonale to the drm criticism for steam, steam could be convenient AND customer-respecting (e.g. no-drm) at the same time.

About proactive self-censoring in forums : this I find always at the same time childish (we all know piracy exist and how it works, nothing new) and dangerous alike, voluntary giving up our right for free speech.

mvdeckard wrote:So, enjoy your borked, virus-infested, outdated games, pirates.

The pirates are out to get you!