Grimrock

First off, let me just say that I love the game. I love the genre, and this game is a worthy successor to the great classics. Thanks to Almost Human for that, salute and hails from Norway!

I do have a few questions about the Character development that I find it hard to see any logic behind;
Mage
Why would anyone choose anything but Ice Magic? I mean Willpower is the main stat for Mages, and Ice Magic is the only one that regularly enhance it.
I can't find any good reasons for Fire to enhance Strength, for example. I do see the possibility of a Fire Mage being able to do some damage with a Legionnaire Spear from the backrow, but then you might as well just get a rogue for more damage.

Logic?

I would suggest that all the Magic speclines should offer Willpower, and Vitality, Dex and Str should be mixed into the Staff Defense line. Remove the Protection bonus, and a few of the Health upgrades and replace them with a mix of Vit, Dex and Str. How about adding a Feather Fall spell to avoid damage from pits? An armor/shield buff spell that redirect some damage back to the attacker? Entangle spell that holds and damages the target? I really like Mages in this game, it's just that an extra rogue is much more reliable in terms of survival and sustained damage.

Fighter
I think I see the intention by the developers here, Meatshields go for Maces for Vitality, Frontloaders go with Axe for Str, and Swords are neither one or the other. The most logically implemented weapon speclines are Swords and Unarmed, as any melee combatant would need Agility more than Strength. I think you all see my point, why would training with Maces increase Vitality?

The Athletics line is awesome, but I see no way you could actually afford to spend much points in it. Maybe I'm just afraid to experiment, but even with kiting strategy, a frontline fighter too little Protection would have a hard time soaking inevitable hits.

I would suggest that Axes, Maces and Swords was replaced by Weapon & Shield, Two-Handed and Dual Wield speclines and given "logical" stat increases. Make "Meatshield" a viable option at the expense of damage output.

Rogue
First off, Minotaur Rogue is the undisputed rogue. Definitely original, I agree, but I personally think it's weird. I also see no logic to why Missile Weapons should increase Dexterity. Anyone who has ever shot with a bow, knows that if anything it enhances your Strength and arguably Willpower. Dexterity is irrelevant for an archer, and in my archery squad there are several disabled people who are among the best shooters in the league. Archery requires Strength for pulling and holding still, mathematics (logic), physics and perception for aiming. Dexterity would arguable make you a better mobile archer, but without Str, you wouldn't be much of an archer in the first place. Remember that the strength of the bow does not only determine the force of the arrow, but also its accuracy and distance.

I would suggest merging Missile Weapons into Throwing Weapons and keep the Throwing Weapons progression as it is. Add a Poisons specline, it would add another usage for the mortar and pestle.

I'd like to point out that my suggestions are just suggestions, and not entirely thought through in every aspect. And even though "balance" is not as important in a single player game, it's never a downside. I think that the lack of two-handed weaponry and dual wield is limiting, and the balance between the different magic and also Throwing vs Missile Weapons is the "worst" part of the game.

Please don't be offended when I say that I think the level up system is bad, it is just an opinion that can change with an explanation to make me understand why it is no, if I am wrong in my observations.

Thanks for reading,
Sabatasso

PS. take into consideration that I am seeing this from a "logical" point of view, because I really dislike very "gamey" solutions. I always look for some sort of "realistic" implementation in games, but prefer the term "logic" because we all know that magic and monsters aren't very realistic in the first place.

The stat increases for most weapon skills are pretty minor. They are not the meat of the build - the benefits of the raw skill itself are what make you want the skill. While it would be nice to see weapon-relevant stat increases on the different weapons, the lack does not break the different weapon skills. Even with the strength bonuses in thrown weapons, for example, missile weapons still do drastically more damage. Unarmed is the only weapon skill that breaks this mold, because its stat increases are so much higher than the rest.

As for magic skills, there are real benefits to the other schools than ice magic. The real draw of ice magic is not the willpower bonuses, but the ranged starter spell and the ability to freeze foes solid with the bolt. Fire and air do more damage, and air gets an extra spell and is not resisted by anything in the game to boot. Having played through with ice, I'm more fond of air personally.

The real flaw I see with character development is that the defensive skills are so horribly under-powered. You cannot beat endgame foes unless you move to avoid letting them attack you, and if you are required to avoid getting attacked, there is no real motive to spend skill points to survive getting attacked. Until and unless defensive skills are boosted to the point of letting us win fights with them that would be harder to win without them, there's not much point in investing. Unarmed vs. Dodge or Armor skill is a particularly egregious example of how badly these skills suck, but they under-perform even compared to skills that give meaningless stat bonuses.

Sabatasso wrote:Mage
Why would anyone choose anything but Ice Magic? I mean Willpower is the main stat for Mages, and Ice Magic is the only one that regularly enhance it.
I can't find any good reasons for Fire to enhance Strength, for example. I do see the possibility of a Fire Mage being able to do some damage with a Legionnaire Spear from the backrow, but then you might as well just get a rogue for more damage.

Logic?

I would suggest that all the Magic speclines should offer Willpower, and Vitality, Dex and Str should be mixed into the Staff Defense line. Remove the Protection bonus, and a few of the Health upgrades and replace them with a mix of Vit, Dex and Str. How about adding a Feather Fall spell to avoid damage from pits? An armor/shield buff spell that redirect some damage back to the attacker? Entangle spell that holds and damages the target? I really like Mages in this game, it's just that an extra rogue is much more reliable in terms of survival and sustained damage.

more Strength on a Mage means carrying more, and the carry weight limit can get quite harsh in this game. Dexterity on a Mage isn't entirely useless because they can use Spears when out of energy (and you need to actually connect with an attack to get XP). the Evasion and Resistances bonus isn't anything to laugh at, either, because you will be getting hit from behind at least guaranteed in a few places, and splashed by energy traps, too. there are no wasted stats in Grimrock, even if there is one which you want more than the others depending on your character's build.

honestly, the real reason Ice wins over the other skills is that Ice can freeze targets. that's it.

Sabatasso wrote:Fighter
I think I see the intention by the developers here, Meatshields go for Maces for Vitality, Frontloaders go with Axe for Str, and Swords are neither one or the other. The most logically implemented weapon speclines are Swords and Unarmed, as any melee combatant would need Agility more than Strength. I think you all see my point, why would training with Maces increase Vitality?

The Athletics line is awesome, but I see no way you could actually afford to spend much points in it. Maybe I'm just afraid to experiment, but even with kiting strategy, a frontline fighter too little Protection would have a hard time soaking inevitable hits.

I would suggest that Axes, Maces and Swords was replaced by Weapon & Shield, Two-Handed and Dual Wield speclines and given "logical" stat increases. Make "Meatshield" a viable option at the expense of damage output.

10 points in Athletics can save you a ton of food, and gives you some bonus Strength and Vitality. i would personally consider it extremely wise to invest early up to there at least on your Minotaurs. it isn't actually that steep of an investment, though it does delay your weapon skills a tad, you won't be finding so much armor so early that delaying your Armor skill by a level or two will actually hurt you. you'll find that Evasion and combat dancing play a far more important role in your survival than the Protection value from items.

Maces and Axes have extremely extremely limited selection, and they are extremely slow and inaccurate weapons. that's the reason Swords rule.

Sabatasso wrote:Rogue
First off, Minotaur Rogue is the undisputed rogue. Definitely original, I agree, but I personally think it's weird. I also see no logic to why Missile Weapons should increase Dexterity. Anyone who has ever shot with a bow, knows that if anything it enhances your Strength and arguably Willpower. Dexterity is irrelevant for an archer, and in my archery squad there are several disabled people who are among the best shooters in the league. Archery requires Strength for pulling and holding still, mathematics (logic), physics and perception for aiming. Dexterity would arguable make you a better mobile archer, but without Str, you wouldn't be much of an archer in the first place. Remember that the strength of the bow does not only determine the force of the arrow, but also its accuracy and distance.

I would suggest merging Missile Weapons into Throwing Weapons and keep the Throwing Weapons progression as it is. Add a Poisons specline, it would add another usage for the mortar and pestle.

I'd like to point out that my suggestions are just suggestions, and not entirely thought through in every aspect. And even though "balance" is not as important in a single player game, it's never a downside. I think that the lack of two-handed weaponry and dual wield is limiting, and the balance between the different magic and also Throwing vs Missile Weapons is the "worst" part of the game.

Minotaurs make poor frontline Tank-Rogues (yes, it's entirely possible, perhaps even desirable, depending...) given their extremely low Dexterity. while good in the back using Assassination (for Reach) and Daggers, they do still cost a ton of food (which is decremented based on actions performed...), and food can quickly become a serious problem if you aren't careful.

rakenan wrote:The stat increases for most weapon skills are pretty minor. They are not the meat of the build - the benefits of the raw skill itself are what make you want the skill. While it would be nice to see weapon-relevant stat increases on the different weapons, the lack does not break the different weapon skills. Even with the strength bonuses in thrown weapons, for example, missile weapons still do drastically more damage. Unarmed is the only weapon skill that breaks this mold, because its stat increases are so much higher than the rest.

The stat increases for weapon skills are not minor at all, 40 in Assassination, for example, gives 8 points of Str, more than you can spend on creation. I also think that a thrown dagger should do at least the same if not more damage than a bow, but have shorter range. Balancing out a illogical system with even more illogical weapon damages does not make it "right". I.E. Two wrongs does not make it right...

rakenan wrote: As for magic skills, there are real benefits to the other schools than ice magic. The real draw of ice magic is not the willpower bonuses, but the ranged starter spell and the ability to freeze foes solid with the bolt. Fire and air do more damage, and air gets an extra spell and is not resisted by anything in the game to boot. Having played through with ice, I'm more fond of air personally.

Ice also get more energy with Willpower increases, can therefore cast more spells = better. I already mentioned the spear possibility, but a rock will do the same trick for leeching XP.

rakenan wrote: The real flaw I see with character development is that the defensive skills are so horribly under-powered. You cannot beat endgame foes unless you move to avoid letting them attack you, and if you are required to avoid getting attacked, there is no real motive to spend skill points to survive getting attacked. Until and unless defensive skills are boosted to the point of letting us win fights with them that would be harder to win without them, there's not much point in investing. Unarmed vs. Dodge or Armor skill is a particularly egregious example of how badly these skills suck, but they under-perform even compared to skills that give meaningless stat bonuses.

Yes, defensive skills is the most defect part about character development, I already mentioned "Make "Meatshield" a viable option at the expense of damage output."

NakedGranny wrote: more Strength on a Mage means carrying more, and the carry weight limit can get quite harsh in this game. Dexterity on a Mage isn't entirely useless because they can use Spears when out of energy (and you need to actually connect with an attack to get XP). the Evasion and Resistances bonus isn't anything to laugh at, either, because you will be getting hit from behind at least guaranteed in a few places, and splashed by energy traps, too. there are no wasted stats in Grimrock, even if there is one which you want more than the others depending on your character's build.

honestly, the real reason Ice wins over the other skills is that Ice can freeze targets. that's it.

I never laughed at anything in any speclines to be honest, but for a Mage specializing in anything other than magic and spellcraft is nothing other than self gimping. The staff defense bonuses are nice, but not when you consider the cost from what you lose out to get it. Lastly, there is no reason to haul around old equipment what so ever. Ice wins because of freeze, more energy, good damage. It is simply equal or better in all aspects. I've finished the game with a 10 str mage, and carrying is not a problem. I do not have a problem with my Mage dying with 4 points of Vitality on creation, rest Willpower (including Aura and Strong Mind) The problem with Mages are spell costs. I spend roughly 50%/50% Spellcraft and Ice Magic. I think it ended up with around 30/30.

NakedGranny wrote: 10 points in Athletics can save you a ton of food, and gives you some bonus Strength and Vitality. i would personally consider it extremely wise to invest early up to there at least on your Minotaurs. it isn't actually that steep of an investment, though it does delay your weapon skills a tad, you won't be finding so much armor so early that delaying your Armor skill by a level or two will actually hurt you. you'll find that Evasion and combat dancing play a far more important role in your survival than the Protection value from items.

Maces and Axes have extremely extremely limited selection, and they are extremely slow and inaccurate weapons. that's the reason Swords rule.

SpoilerShow

there are only one or two good Axes in the game, and you don't get them until almost the end, and there's only a single decent Mace in the game, and it's quite far down, too. whereas there are at least three extremely good Swords all but guaranteed to be found in the middle floors... not to mention the almighty claymore found in the Vault...

I can read, I know perfectly well what 10 points in athletics does. I explicitly said that you can't afford to spend many points in it. I don't consider 10 points as many, but it's more than I see useful. Again, it's a question about what you get and what you sacrifice to get it. I don't think food is a problem, not even with Minotaur, so I would never go higher than 5 to be honest. I've run around with 3 Minotaurs, and food was just exciting and never a real problem.

In regards to the weapon specs/availability I again just want to say that evening out a poor system with limiting choices is not a good practice. Then all later additions to the game have to consider the fact that certain skills become overpowered unless you make sure a certain weapon type is scarce and so on. It's simply a bad idea from the get go, and only temporarily fixed in an undesirable fashion.

rakenan wrote: Minotaurs make poor frontline Tank-Rogues (yes, it's entirely possible, perhaps even desirable, depending...) given their extremely low Dexterity. while good in the back using Assassination (for Reach) and Daggers, they do still cost a ton of food (which is decremented based on actions performed...), and food can quickly become a serious problem if you aren't careful.

It's pretty common knowledge that Rogue is the most desirable frontline character by now, I didn't feel like I had to state the obvious when every third thread on the board mentions it multiple times. Food is still not a problem, you have plenty of bag space if you throw away old equipment, and fill containers if need be. As I mentioned, I've finished the game with 2 Minotaur rogues (Dagger/Throwing), A fighter Minotaur (with 5 Athletics) and a Human frontline Rogue. The food part was exciting at times, but my party was never starving.

My point isn't that the system isn't working. It does work, but it's not great. So, since the rest of the game is so great, I wouldn't mind a great character system to go along with it. To put it frankly, the system is so blatantly obvious that once you know how stuff works, one way is so clearly better than the other that you would be practicing severe self-gimping by going another way. I am not even a natural min-maxer in any fashion.

Those who remain silent agrees... or?