Some thoughts on the game design & balance

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blob
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Some thoughts on the game design & balance

Post by blob »

(Spoilers ahead)

So I just finished the game, and well... have to admit I'm impressed AH did an even better game than LoG 1... I didn't think it was possible. :D

Here's some thoughts on the game's balancing and design, sorry it's a bit messy.

Open world
Being able to leave the claustrophobic dungeons and visit an entire island freely felt fresh and exciting! The island map design was pretty clever, with well thought out teleporters, unlockable levels through puzzles / items and good feeling of progression while leaving a feeling of freedom to the player. However such large open areas are a lot harder to balance and LoG 2 feels a lot less well balanced than LoG 1:

Difficulty
Playing in normal with single use crystals I found the game quite hard in the first third of the game ( twigroots and bog monsters were quite troublesome) but the game gradually became easier and easier with time. LoG 2 has WAY TOO MANY herbs, and, the alchemist class' power is a bit too powerful ( maybe his ability should evolve with the alchemy skill as well ? So that he grows plants faster with a higher skill level). I finished the game with about 60 heal mushrooms and 120 mana plants. LoG 1 gave that great feeling that each element you found was vital to your success. I never felt like i didnt care for loot even if it was food. I found myself growing bored of basic loot in LoG 2 because i had crates of food and herbs.

Respawning ennemies
Part of the problem came from respawning ennemies on most maps. I think this is a step back in design. This kinda kills the survival aspect, when you can just grind mobs for EXP and food. When food is infinite, it makes the starvation system just futile and nothing but an inventory filler ( I think this is why we see quite a few people up here complaining about the food system). It doesnt make the game harder nor does it push you to move forward like it did in LoG 1 ( I know LoG 1 had infinite snail but it was only in one spot of the whole game I think, making it unlikely you d go back all the time to stock up) .
Make respawning mobs give limited EXP and not drop loot. Make them rarer too: backtracking when it has to be done is not especially fun in the first place, but making it more arduous doesnt make it more interesting. If you want to make old places more interesting set one time events that bring new ennemies in the map ( like the rat boss ' twin brother: that was a great surprise).

In the end: easy grinding of EXP + infinite food + multiplying herbs with an alchemist = no feeling of urgency or risk. Worse: the more i got stuck on puzzles the stronger my party got ( from fighting respawning mobs and having more and more herbs). It is rewarding the wrong kind of behavior. in LoG1, at no point I wanted to waste time and there was a great feeling of struggle ( finding secrets to get loot felt really important).

Bosses
Boss fights were an AMAZING addition. I'm a sucker for boss battles and those were very well done with good old life bars and a different music for each fight! Nothing to critic on that except that the undead brothers were pretty underwhelming. Probably a lot more entertaining if they were both fighting the party at the same time.

Air elementals
Mentionned in another topic but those guys are pretty poorly designed. They are visually confusing and read as poison / earth type. They are ethereal but heroes can't go through them. Only a couple things can hurt them, but you could meet these ennemies before you find any and find yourself cornered and have to wait for your death. The game should either introduce them once the player has a way to fight them ( boring solution) either introduce them in a way that feels fair to the player. My first Air elemental was in a tiny dead end in the house of needles... this is a very frustrating way to introduce a new mechanic if the party has NO way of fighting back and is forced to die because its stuck in a dead end. A solution would be to be able to walk through air elementals like the rat horde. The other would be to introduce them in more open areas, and eventually place them in corridors way later in the game.

Water
Being able to swim was a nice touch, but not being able to fight felt very frustrating.
In itself its not a bad idea, but the player should always have a way out of a situation. As in, he shouldnt be punished for jumping in the water and being unlucky because 3 turtles happen to be around and he's stuck forever in between them. It just didnt feel fun. The trident came too late in the game and in places not related to water so it didnt even occur to me they could be useful.

If there was a one time use teleportation crystal, it would make a rare / costly way to escape the air elementals / underwater monsters bad situations. But in the current state, being stuck forever for X reasons feels unfair / frustrating.

Epic items:
Are all epic weapons 2 handed heavy items ??
It felt like the game wanted me to have a whole team of heavy weapon wielders. I missed 3 epic items by end game and I believe none were throwing / bow / light weapons. :l

Races:
Maybe I get this wrong but lizards seem better at survival than any other race.
An easy 50 % resist all from the start? Yes please. Most big ennemies and late bosses do mostly elemental attacks.
Add to that a huge 30% regen in a game where food is infinite. Sure!

Puzzles:
I feel like AH made sure to not reuse some of the previous puzzle mechanics from LoG1. But in a way some of those were missing... I was disappointed there was no teleporter maze, or tricky areas that keep secretly changing the direction i was facing, not much timer based puzzles too. But all the new ones were great!

Magic:
Where is my enchant arrow spell!?
I realize it's a bow special attack now and that it was a bit tedious to create them all the time but I dunno, it was kinda fun. Maybe you could enchant arrows on specific altars through the world. This way it woudlnt be a repetitive tedious task, you d just do it once in a while.
Is there only 2 water spells? It seemed like most spells were Fire or Air. Too bad for my water mage, good thing he knew how to use guns.

Skills:
It's too bad main stats dont increase anymore with skills. Especially since skill often have underwhelming upgrades. Why not add some stat upgrades along the way too to make increasing skills more appealing?

Ok I'm done! Maybe it sounds like a lot of bashing but I really think LoG 2 is amazing and that with a few tweaks it could become the absolute ultimate First Person dungeon crawler!
And well, like a lot of us here, I'm eagerly waiting for the mod scripting reference! :D
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Sarumorpheus
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Re: Some thoughts on the game design & balance

Post by Sarumorpheus »

Regarding the air elementals, my first encounter with one of them was also in the House of Needles and I found myself quickly trapped in a corner, slowly waiting to die. >< I was not a fan of that, but once I realized I could use Force Field to trap them, they became way less menacing. They're the type of monster you hate at first, but once you get a grip over them they're not so bad. ^^

About the undead brothers, I did not feel the fights underwhelming, but I felt they were too much alike. Would be great if the second brother were either a full caster or 2h-weapon wielder, performing special earth-shattering attacks, just for the sake of variety.

I actually did not realize the harpoon could be used to kill underwater enemies until I had completed the game, so I spent the entire time avoiding underwater beasts. xD
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petri
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Re: Some thoughts on the game design & balance

Post by petri »

Hi blob! So you liked boss fights but everything else was not so good, hehe :)
Ixnatifual

Re: Some thoughts on the game design & balance

Post by Ixnatifual »

I agree with some of it, but personally I didn't come upon those famed XP grind spots or infinite food supplies and was running quite low by the time I completed the game. Is there some trick to getting respawns I didn't find? I felt pressured to skip some of the optional puzzles so I wouldn't run out of food for the main quest.

I also didn't have anywhere close to that amount of potions at any point. This all felt very balanced to me. Sometimes ran a bit low for short periods.

I'm thinking they nerfed the amount of timing puzzles because people had problems with them in the first game if they were on slow computers or had poor reflexes.

I generally wasn't that big a fan of the boss fights myself. Love the game overall, though.

Except the air elementals. They were annoying because I got Dispel Magic and Ethereal Blade quite a while after encountering the elementals. So I had to lure them off to the other sides of the map to complete puzzles in peace.
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blob
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Re: Some thoughts on the game design & balance

Post by blob »

Sarumorpheus wrote:Regarding the air elementals, my first encounter with one of them was also in the House of Needles and I found myself quickly trapped in a corner, slowly waiting to die. >< I was not a fan of that, but once I realized I could use Force Field to trap them, they became way less menacing. They're the type of monster you hate at first, but once you get a grip over them they're not so bad. ^^
Agreed, I like the concept of ethereal creatures. I just think they need to be introduced better and that their visual should be changed to more explicitly say "air" rather than "Earth".
Sarumorpheus wrote: About the undead brothers, I did not feel the fights underwhelming, but I felt they were too much alike. Would be great if the second brother were either a full caster or 2h-weapon wielder, performing special earth-shattering attacks, just for the sake of variety.
That'd mean more work for AH to create a new creature though. :p
The story emphasize them being brothers so much I just expected them to fight together. I also think they'd look damn cool as a duo.
Sarumorpheus wrote: I actually did not realize the harpoon could be used to kill underwater enemies until I had completed the game, so I spent the entire time avoiding underwater beasts. xD
I just avoided them until I got to the flooded dungeon then I couldnt really avoid them anymore in the cramped area. Did the shameful act of reading online to find a way to kill them (by falling on them).
petri wrote:Hi blob! So you liked boss fights but everything else was not so good, hehe :)
Hi. Haha, sorry I totally realize it sounds like a long list of bitching but that's just because I'm really terrible at communicating my thoughts. :p
I swear LoG2 is possibly 2014's best game ( LoG 1 was my 2012's best game of the year), like i say tweaks here and there could make it the best FPCrawler of all time. I meant that! I love pretty much everything in the game, I just didnt list it because i dont think it needs extra discussion in this thread. I made this post to mostly discuss either the big changes from LoG1 and the design choices that didn't work so well.

If you have to limit my post to the essential stuff and remove my extra bitching because I'm being picky I would limit it to those 3 points:
1- The key issue is the game becoming easier with time and the infinite supply of food. Of course I did only one playthrough so maybe my experience was very different than most. I can give a list of detailed things I'd change but I think that'd make me sound super patronizing and maybe not respectful of the large amount of work certainly already put into the game balance.
2- introduce air elementals better, to avoid the house of needle cornered situation.
3- Underwater impossibility to fight feels a bit confusing right now. Maybe its just I was expecting other items to make it more accessible later on, maybe it just needs a statue giving a tiny hint about how it works.

Bonus: Here's one of the things I really loved and should have mentionned: Tons of new monsters with really awesome AIs variations forcing me to be on my toe during battles! The toads freaked the shit out of me. :D
Ixnatifual wrote:I agree with some of it, but personally I didn't come upon those famed XP grind spots or infinite food supplies and was running quite low by the time I completed the game. Is there some trick to getting respawns I didn't find? I felt pressured to skip some of the optional puzzles so I wouldn't run out of food for the main quest.
First, I love your ultima avatar. :p
Respawns should trigger as you finish levels and get power gems I think. Once they are triggered I think they reactivate regularly on a timer while you are not in the map ( might be wrong). If you go back to shipwreck's beach, there should be something like 4 turtles. Easy meat source. There's 2 or 3 wargs that come back in the root forest too.
If you go back there do they appear? Some turtles are usually right by the crystal.
Ixnatifual wrote: I also didn't have anywhere close to that amount of potions at any point. This all felt very balanced to me. Sometimes ran a bit low for short periods.
That's cool! Must have been a pretty exciting and fun run through! :)
My wizard in the team was the alchemy class ( who cares about casting with hands when you'll use staff or orbs for 95% of the game) so my herbs were multiplying like wild rabbits. It's possible the balance issue mostly comes from the class power being OP. End game I think I had had about 22+ crystal flowers.
Ixnatifual wrote: I'm thinking they nerfed the amount of timing puzzles because people had problems with them in the first game if they were on slow computers or had poor reflexes.
Oh I didnt know that, slow computer is a valid reason. Much sadness.
Ixnatifual wrote: Except the air elementals. They were annoying because I got Dispel Magic and Ethereal Blade quite a while after encountering the elementals. So I had to lure them off to the other sides of the map to complete puzzles in peace.
If you had the air elementals ( in the forgotten river I assume) then respawning worked right? Because those guys aren't here at first, they appear after you do the crystal mine or something.
Ixnatifual

Re: Some thoughts on the game design & balance

Post by Ixnatifual »

Yes, I saw monsters repopulating some of the outdoor areas. But nothing I could stay and farm as far as I could tell. It seemed they didn't endlessly respawn, but maybe I just didn't stick around long enough.

My Alchemist sadly was Firearms so mostly just sat there conserving his very limited ammo. I spent all Crystal Flowers pretty much immediately for their statistics bonuses except for one to grow.
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blob
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Re: Some thoughts on the game design & balance

Post by blob »

It seemed endless, just takes a lil while to come back. Bunch of fish seem to respawn in the water too, for even more food. Snakes in the Tomb, frogs in bog and sewer as well.

My insect alchemist did mostly utility spells like the magic cube to trap ennemies (best life saver of the game), light, dispel and inefficient frost shards. Would switch to firearms when mana is low so i was able to save more ammos than needed ( you can farm some ammos from respawning ratlings in the sewers i think, but that wouldnt be efficient). Ammos were starting to go down super fast with the repeater though! I couldnt get his accuracy high enough to make him efficient with firearms though.

crystal flower: You did this right. I dont think a bigger number affects the growth rate. :)
I kept 3 or 4 at a time in case I found a crazy recipe requiring more.
Ixnatifual

Re: Some thoughts on the game design & balance

Post by Ixnatifual »

I wrote my own critique of the game here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=7445&p=76113#p76113

Not as in-depth as yours, though.
thufir
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Re: Some thoughts on the game design & balance

Post by thufir »

Could always try the game on hard difficulty, ironman, with single-use crystals. In that situation your herb situation will strike you as barely adequate, even with an alchemist. Trust me on this one. Most of your difficulty concerns will evaporate under those circumstances.
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blob
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Re: Some thoughts on the game design & balance

Post by blob »

thufir wrote:Could always try the game on hard difficulty, ironman, with single-use crystals. In that situation your herb situation will strike you as barely adequate, even with an alchemist. Trust me on this one. Most of your difficulty concerns will evaporate under those circumstances.
Yes It will probably fit me better, I agree. :)
I dont think it will exactly resolve the problem at the root though. As in, it feels weird that I d have to go through a 100 heal pots to finish the game. Not sure to explain it, but it felt quite "right" in LoG 1 that availability of ressource was very low ( I really liked that you needed a glass bottle to make a potion too, sad to see that go). Using a heal pot was kindof a last resort kind of thing, I didnt want to waste them. Having tons of them and drinking them for every injuries makes me feel like I'm playing Diablo or something. It makes the pots feel less valuable and their use less interesting.
However, you are right, I will have to give a try to the hard mode.
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